Why should I go to an American school?

[papercranes]

You didn't mention whether or not you want to live/practice in the U.S, which makes it practically impossible to advise you.

That being said, it's #1 Canadian vs U.S - UCLA/Fordham/Vandy/USC/B.U (probably a couple others you could add in there).  You have a marginal shot at UofT, so the U.S comparison should also be versus your longshots (you might sneak into Vandy, USC, have a great shot at Fordham/B.U).

In this case it's simple.  If you want to live in Canada = UofT.  If you want to live in the U.S = one of the above U.S schools.  If you still aren't sure = UofT.   

I'd give her a "decent" shot at UofT rather than "marginal"...but being that Canadians contribute significantly to the diversity of American schools, I would say she has a much better shot at an equivalent school (like Vanday)...and perhaps could make it to a better school than UofT like Cornell or Duke etc....also, I think from the other thread I read that she has a green card, and so with that I can't imagine staying in Canada if I were her.

From what I know (from UofT law kids on their classmates) and talking to the UofT admin people, my shot is closer to decent rather than marginal. Which is nice becuase I didn't really fancy Osgoode or living out at Western.

I'm looking at UCLA (long shot) USC (less long) BC and a couple of others. You're right about the greencard and since I have a US address, and a US citizen mother, I doubt that I would be looked at the same way a regular international Canadian would be. I think I am eligible for loans just as an american citizen would.

As far as I know, the only things I don't have are an american passport, eligibilty to vote and power to petition family members to become citizens/greencard holders.

[gillesthegreat]

it is very hard for a Canadian to get 150K+ in loans to attend a U.S institution,

Hell yes. I have 42K in scholarship, and 35K of savings, and it's not yet clear that the bank will agree to 100$CA.

[usbound]

I disagree that being Canadian gives you an advantage.  Having completed my U.S application cycle and visited several T20 schools I was accepted to (and one I was waitlisted at), I got the opportunity to speak to some admissions officers.  The general consensus that I got when asking if my Canadian status had played a significant role in my acceptance was that Canadians aren't considered to add diversity the way URMs do.  Sometimes it is taken into account but more often than not, it can work against you.  I was told that statistically accepted Canadian students don't matriculate as often as U.S students.  A large number of Canadians apply to law schools in the U.S along with Canadian ones every year and in the end go with a Canadian school when they are unable to secure funding (it is very hard for a Canadian to get 150K+ in loans to attend a U.S institution, so it usually has to come from family or other sources).  As a result one adcomm in particular told me that they were hesistant to accept a Canadian because it affects their acceptance statistics and it was their experience that these were the students that most often pulled out in late July.

Obviously this is anectdotal and these conversations were extremely casual in setting but I don't think a 3.66 (with drops) / 166 will get a Canadian into Duke for example.  Cornell is dicey and Vandy is a toss-up (check LSN there were 3.9+ / 166s rejected or WL this cycle). 

The adcomm conversations are very interesting...I wonder if it would be helpful to address those issues in the addendum portion of addmissions??? Any thoughts on how to do that?

[MorningStar]

I don't think it merits an full out addendum but perhaps if your PS makes any reference to your desire to persue your education in the U.S, you could state that this decision has come about after a significant amount of personal and financial planning which will allow you to smoothly transition to the U.S.  Basically that just lets them know you're serious and aren't applying to big name U.S schools on a whim without any idea how you're going to pay for it.

[Lindbergh]

So you can practice in the U.S.? 

[laur0212]

So you can practice in the U.S.? 

LOL that was exactly what I was going to say.  I was confused by the subject of the post...I thought it was obvious why one should go to an American law school.

[caveman924]

If this helps any I'm not sure if it was all completely covered as I was only skimming this board.

I spoke with the Ontario Bar Assoc. in regards to what is needed if you went to an American school and came back to Canada to practice. I was told that obviously it has to be an accredited school but a reputable association of accreditation the ABA (so if for some really stupid reason you were thinking of going to a non-ABA accredited school in the US don't. Note that if for some reason you want to go to a provisionally ABA approved school whether or not it remains ABA approved as long as it was provisionally when in your first year accoriding to the ABA it still counts as being at an ABA accredited school. Stupid I know but just some info) Anyways, the OBA said that depending on what courses you take at the school in the US determines how much more school you have to do in Ontario, but generally it does not exceed 1 year of school. I was told that the courses generally taken are pre-requisites to the Ontario Bar and generally cover Canadian and Provincial laws. I don't believe that you get an LLM for these courses since you are not really applying to these Canadian law schools as a student. To get into these classes you are at the bottom of the totem poll as it is first reserved for students and then for people needing them for bar requirements.

Also unless it has changed in the past couple of years I believe it is harder to go from a Canadian school to work in the US than to go from a US school to work in Canada. The reason is, is how the bar exam is taken. In Ontario last time I heard it is an open book exam which while never an easy exam the open book feature only helps rather than deters. In New York, unless it has changed in the past couple of years it is a closed book exam so you have no help.

In regards to practicing in the US with a Canadian LLB (JD for those from UofT), it is not as clear cut as it seems. Outside of the Bar exam you need to take the MSBE (multi-state bar exam). Also, not every state will let you take their bar exam right away even if you did take it in NY. Florida for example is the hardest market to crack into for a Canadian, and it also has one of the fastest growing legal markets in the US. Florida requires a 10 year minimum wait. (I don't remember if it is 10 years from passing your bar in Canada or 10 years after passing an American bar)

Also, while it is not necessarily a Tier 1 or 2 school in the US, Florida International University, which is only 2 years old, I know, is a Tier 3 school that is working to climb the ranking system. This school charges approx. $23,000US for out of state residents and approx $9,000 for in state residents. Thus making it one of the cheapest law schools in North American if you make residency. So if a Canadian were to go there they would most likely have to pay $23000 their first year, but residency requirements are not hard to meet. If you rent an apartment off campus, get Floridian bills and get a Florida driver's license before 1L then you can have your file re-evaluated and by 2L and 3L you will be paying about $9000US (or about $9500 CDN) per year. And your total tuition cost would be about $43500 CDN for the three years at law school. The reason for the cheap tuition is that is run like all universities in Ontario, it is considered a public institution that is funded by the state. This school I know, for sure about this info and I am know that there are other schools that also have cheaper tuition for residents that are ranked even higher, however not all states are as easy to meet residency requirements.

In regards to Visa or immigration issues, they only really exist while you are a student. Law is one of the professions protected by the Free Trade Agreement where Canadians can practice in the US and vice versa without repercussions of not being a citizen or landed immigrant in either country. Although, I am not so sure if it is that clear cut but this is what I was explained by many lawyers I have spoken to.

Also, it helps to note that if you do not go to an Ivy league law school then it pays to know how far you law degree will go. What I mean is that if you go to a law school for example in California, people in New york, FLorida, Mass. might not look as highly upon it and will turn to more locally trained lawyers. So be prepared to work even not far from where you obtained your law degree.

And, also it helps to know that this year 07/08 and probably next year 08/09 are considered the most competitive for law school applicants. This is because each school on average received anywhere between 1.5 to 2 times the applicants as the double-cohort graduated from undergrad this past school year.

Hope some of this helps.

[gillesthegreat]

This school charges approx. $23,000US for out of state residents and approx $9,000 for in state residents. Thus making it one of the cheapest law schools in North American if you make residency. So if a Canadian were to go there they would most likely have to pay $23000 their first year, but residency requirements are not hard to meet.

I doubt that this is correct. Having been a student at the University of California, I can tell you from experience that one cannot become a resident for tuition purposes if one is not at least a permanent resident of the US. Thus, I never could qualify. I would presume that FIU works the same way. Check first.

Also, it helps to note that if you do not go to an Ivy league law school then it pays to know how far you law degree will go. What I mean is that if you go to a law school for example in California, people in New york, FLorida, Mass. might not look as highly upon it and will turn to more locally trained lawyers. So be prepared to work even not far from where you obtained your law degree.

This is essentially true, save for the Ivy league part. Replace that with 'T14' or 'National school', and you're correct. And to add precision, beyond the national schools that allow you to work everywhere in the country, there also some good regional schools. For example, BU or BC are probably good anywhere in New England, U of Washington covers the Northwest, and Emory all of the South. If you know which region interests you, you can consider trading rank for scholarships.

[papercranes]

I highly highly highly doubt that the double co-hort will make any noticible difference.

This isn't like high school where the majority of students do go directly to university. Even in that case, some did travel/work/go somewhere other than ontario for uni. BC/Quebec schools DID not experience a very dramatic rise in UG applicants after the double cohort, so it seems limited to Ontario.

In fact this would only ever apply to law school applicants from Ontario high schools who graduated in 2003, if they went to university immediately, if they graduated in exactly four years, if they took no time off afterwards, if those kids are applying to law schools at about the same rate as any other year AND if the majority of those kids choose to stay in Ontario for law school.

Seems unlikely.

I think it is much more likely that it's been diffused. MANY people travel/work/take time off/go somewhere other than ontario before law school.

This double-cohort-everyone-is-screwed business is bullsh*t.

[caveman924]

This school charges approx. $23,000US for out of state residents and approx $9,000 for in state residents. Thus making it one of the cheapest law schools in North American if you make residency. So if a Canadian were to go there they would most likely have to pay $23000 their first year, but residency requirements are not hard to meet.

I doubt that this is correct. Having been a student at the University of California, I can tell you from experience that one cannot become a resident for tuition purposes if one is not at least a permanent resident of the US. Thus, I never could qualify. I would presume that FIU works the same way. Check first.

Also, it helps to note that if you do not go to an Ivy league law school then it pays to know how far you law degree will go. What I mean is that if you go to a law school for example in California, people in New york, FLorida, Mass. might not look as highly upon it and will turn to more locally trained lawyers. So be prepared to work even not far from where you obtained your law degree.

This is essentially true, save for the Ivy league part. Replace that with 'T14' or 'National school', and you're correct. And to add precision, beyond the national schools that allow you to work everywhere in the country, there also some good regional schools. For example, BU or BC are probably good anywhere in New England, U of Washington covers the Northwest, and Emory all of the South. If you know which region interests you, you can consider trading rank for scholarships.

For Florida International University, while visiting the school the person in admissions who I spoke to told me this. Each state does have different residency requirements. Florida however just requires you to live there for at least a year and have a residence under your name or immeadiate family name. However, I cannot guarantee this info 100% because I have not spoken to anybody who has done this but like I said this is what the person in admissions told me.