Can't Get In!

[Phildoski]

So far, I have yet to get in anywhere! Even at schools where my GPA/LSAT was higher than their average. So far, the only positives I've recieved are waitlist at Georgetown. I was rejected at Baylor, Texas Tech, U of Texas, U of Virginia, Catholic University, and Northeastern.

I'm 32, white male, veteran with a 3.81 GPA, 152 LSAT. I've worked 50 hrs/week all through undergrad in a career. I was also involved in:

University of North Texas, Clovis C. Morrisson Award  Pre-Law Student of the Year, 2002-2003
President and Dean’s list, all semesters.
Pi Sigma Alpha Political Science Honor Society
Phi Theta Kappa Honor Society
American Moot Court Association Outstanding Written Brief, 2003
Nominated for Political Science Student of the Year 2003-2004 (Award Pending)

Texas Undergraduate Moot Court Association (TUMCA):
Finalist Team, Texas Tech Law School Tournament 2003
Fifth Speaker, Texas Tech Law School Tournament 2003
Finalist Team, Baylor Law School Tournament, 2003
Top Speaker, Baylor Law School Tournament, 2003
Semi-Finalist Team, Texas Wesleyan Law School Tournament, 2003
First Place, Hardin Simmons Tournament, 2002
Quarter Finalist, Baylor University 2004
Tenth Overall Speaker, 2002-2003

Activities:
Study Abroad at The International Criminal Court for the Former Yugoslavia, The Hague, Netherlands

Phi Alpha Delta, Secretary 2002-2003; Member 2002-2004
UNT Moot Court Captain, 2002-2004;
UNT Moot Court, 2002-2004
Designed websites for UNT Moot Court, Phi Alpha Delta Pre-Law Fraternity, and Texas Undergraduate Moot Court Association.

Now, I had a criminal record when I was 15, and a dismissed theft by check under $50.00.

I would have thought that my activities since then would count for something. I don't know why I'm not getting in anywhere, anybody have any ideas?

[lawschoolafterdark]

You sound like a motivated person.  Just find a law school that accepts you and do your best.  If you are as oriented to achievment as your post suggest you will do well where ever you go.

[apartment]

Phildoski,

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.  You sound like a very accomplished person and I hope you are accepted somewhere soon.

Based on your post, I can give one suggestion.  When you talk about your achievements, do not focus quite so much on your pre-law awards.  I don't know if that listing was a cut and paste from your resume, but for someone who is 32 and worked full-time through their undergrad years, you probably have more interesting things to list and talk about than some awards.  Frankly, everyone I know who applies to law school has tons of awards to list.  I can tell you that not everyone I know can boast of having as interesting a life as you have no doubt led.

An admissions commitee can guess at your aptitude for law school from your GPA and LSAT score, as they can for any candidate; but they may have a harder time seeing what kind of individual you are if you just give them a listing of awards.

I don't know you.  I haven't seen your application, and I'm not trying to attack you.  I just thought it may be worthwhile to go through your applications and see if there is anything more you could add to your materials, or if there is something you could change, to make yourself stand out.

[SevenMailmen]

First let me express my sympathies over this situation.  You have accomplished many great things.  And as a previous writer said, I wish I had your GPA.  In my estimation, it is the 152 LSAT that is causing the problem.  The recession has had a profound effect on the number of law school applications.  Here in the Boston area schools that previously received little more than 1000 applications are now receiving 3500 applications.  The LSAT requirements published by LSAC/ABA for a given school are too low. Schools are using the LSAT to hash the applicant pool in a more profound way than they were.  In my own experience, discovering a cure for the common cold has meant little to admissions committees.  I believe your options are to apply to a lower (so-called) tier of school (you will still be called Esquire) or work on the LSAT until you are practice testing in the high 150s. 

[abc12345]

i'm on hold at 3 schools with a 166...and the average as of last year at these schools is 160 160 and 164

its terrible

[Aonghus]

Phil...

Unfortunately, most law schools put about 60% of the admissions decision on the LSAT score.  Your LSAT does not reflect the ability to kickass in a great law school.  You are applying to tier 1 schools with a tier 4 LSAT.  I would suggest that you set your sights lower and apply to some t3/t4 schools, you could, for example get into CalWestern or Whittier or Thomas Jefferson or Florida Coastal with no problems, and then try to transfer up next year.

If I was you, I would sit this year out, and spend the next 6 months at least prepping for the LSAT... Im talking 20-30 hours a week.  Pay the thousand bucks, take a prep class that lets you retake for free and keep going, do logic games till your ears bleed.

You need to increase that score by at least 10 points.  Alot of good t1 schools will throw out the lower score if there is a 10 point gap.

But it is work...  Dont think just sitting in a class is going to fix it.  I paid a thousand bucks to take a prep class but was working and taking a full class load on top, so I literally just went to the class and hoped to learn by osmosis... result, I wasted a grand.

Dont make my mistake, take a class, DO the 20-30 hours a week of drilling and preparation for 6 months, get a 165, and then next year write a KICKASS personal statement that doesnt talk about all that pre-law crap.  They want you to have some depth.

When you send in an application with 3.8/165 or better, youll have a fair shot at any but the top 5.  And maybe even one of them if you stand out in some other way.

[blizzard of ozz]

I agree with the previous poster. Your LSAT doesn't cut it at any  of those schools.

You applied to T1 schools with a T4 LSAT. Your LSAT score will relegate you to 3rd or 4th tier. You applied to schools way out of your league. Law schools don't care about EC's or WE, especially when you have a ho-hum LSAT. Did you look at those schools' LSAT medians? you're nearly 20 points below some of them!

Btw, a 3.8/165 doesn't put you anywhere near the top 5 or top 14, not anymore. It probably won't get you into most of the top 25. I'm getting dinged all over the lower end of T1 with my stats. Btw, I have no priors and impressive EC's (MUCH more impressive than the OP's). Admissions has gotten tough

[Revenant]

Like the other posters, I wish I had your GPA.  Luckily, you can still fix your LSAT score if you are willing to put some time into it.  Bring it up to a 160+ and you will be fine at at least the T2s (if you had discared the 152 before it hit the records, retaking the LSAT and getting 160+ woulda guaranteed you for T1 most likely, but now with the averaging of two LSAT scores, it will probably be harder but not impossible.)

[thechoson]

I agree with the previous poster. Your LSAT doesn't cut it at any  of those schools.

You applied to T1 schools with a T4 LSAT. Your LSAT score will relegate you to 3rd or 4th tier. You applied to schools way out of your league. Law schools don't care about EC's or WE, especially when you have a ho-hum LSAT. Did you look at those schools' LSAT medians? you're nearly 20 points below some of them!

Btw, a 3.8/165 doesn't put you anywhere near the top 5 or top 14, not anymore. It probably won't get you into most of the top 25. I'm getting dinged all over the lower end of T1 with my stats. Btw, I have no priors and impressive EC's (MUCH more impressive than the OP's). Admissions has gotten tough

You know what, seriously, I have a problem with people that tell others where they can and can't go with numbers that are better than their own.  I mean you have a 3.66/163, but you are telling somebody they might not get into a top 25 with a 3.8/165.  Honestly, how the heck would you know?  Just cause you are getting dinged at the lower tier 1, doesn't mean somebody with BETTER numbers would not have a shot at better schools.  The law school game has gotten very competitive and quantitative, which means that slight differences in GPA and LSAT matter all that much more.

Thus I would disagree with you statement about a 3.8/ 165 not being good enough for top 14 or top 25.  Your numbers are really good, don't get me wrong, but you shouldn't say what numbers better than your own can or can't do.

[blizzard of ozz]

I agree with the previous poster. Your LSAT doesn't cut it at any  of those schools.

You applied to T1 schools with a T4 LSAT. Your LSAT score will relegate you to 3rd or 4th tier. You applied to schools way out of your league. Law schools don't care about EC's or WE, especially when you have a ho-hum LSAT. Did you look at those schools' LSAT medians? you're nearly 20 points below some of them!

Btw, a 3.8/165 doesn't put you anywhere near the top 5 or top 14, not anymore. It probably won't get you into most of the top 25. I'm getting dinged all over the lower end of T1 with my stats. Btw, I have no priors and impressive EC's (MUCH more impressive than the OP's). Admissions has gotten tough

You know what, seriously, I have a problem with people that tell others where they can and can't go with numbers that are better than their own.  I mean you have a 3.66/163, but you are telling somebody they might not get into a top 25 with a 3.8/165.  Honestly, how the heck would you know?  Just cause you are getting dinged at the lower tier 1, doesn't mean somebody with BETTER numbers would not have a shot at better schools.  The law school game has gotten very competitive and quantitative, which means that slight differences in GPA and LSAT matter all that much more.

Thus I would disagree with you statement about a 3.8/ 165 not being good enough for top 14 or top 25.  Your numbers are really good, don't get me wrong, but you shouldn't say what numbers better than your own can or can't do.

Actually, I can say where someone with a 165/3.8 is likely to get in. I'm relying on something more concrete than anecdotal knowledge, statistics. You might want to give it a shot.

I've checked most of the school's stats in the 1st tier exhaustively. They are in fact listed on these school's websites and in USNWR. Many have matrices, as well, which list your relative probability of admission. Also, check lawschoolnumbers.com, while the stats are not yet substantiated (and therefore i am somewhat skeptical of them), they seem to provide a reasonable sampling of T1 applicants which corresponds with previous years. Not only do I have statistical evidence but anecdotal as well (since for some godforsaken reason so many people on the board love that too) as I know several people who were in fact rejected from the top 14 and most of the top 25 or so schools with GPA's @3.9 and LSAT's @165.

it's nice to have hope. it's better to have a backup plan.