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Author Topic: Do foreign born blacks get AA?  (Read 3782 times)

Kirk Lazarus

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Re: Do foreign born blacks get AA?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 10:38:45 AM »
Well I think its fairly obvious from the statistics of Black enrollment at elite schools (at least on the undergraduate and graduate level). I'm not sure about professional schools, though.

Exactly, how do the "statistics of black enrollment at elite schools" tell you that black immigrants benefit from AA? I hope you're not assuming that black immigrants at elite schools definitely got there via AA.

I think it is pretty obvious that the most qualified Blacks are the ones that benefit the most from affirmative action. I know that it sounds counter-intuitive, but consider that the best qualified Blacks are virtually guaranteed admission to schools. Note that I'm not suggesting that they wouldn't have gotten in if it were not for affirmative action. Certainly, many Blacks don't need affirmative action. Still, affirmative action virtually guarantees admission for Blacks with certain creditials.

Just to crystalize the point, consider a law school example. Say I have a 3.8/172. I have the creditials to get in to HLS without affirmative action. I would even say I have a good shot. Still, I get the boost and I'm in...guaranteed. There is no guess work involved. It doesn't diminish my acheivements or work, it is just inevitable since there aren't too many 3.8/172 Blacks. I tend to think that affirmative action benefits the most academically qualified Blacks.

While quotas are illegal per say, schools certainly are aware of the percentage of Blacks they've admitted. The statistics indicate at the UG level that schools are neglecting to admit American born Blacks for foreign born Blacks (hence benefit more). Given my explanation above, this isn't surprising. Thus, it seems foreign born Blacks benefit the most from Affirmative Action at elite schools irrespective of whether or not they would have needed the boost to get in under a color blind admissions system.




 
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Re: Do foreign born blacks get AA?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 02:07:24 PM »
Well I think its fairly obvious from the statistics of Black enrollment at elite schools (at least on the undergraduate and graduate level). I'm not sure about professional schools, though.

Exactly, how do the "statistics of black enrollment at elite schools" tell you that black immigrants benefit from AA? I hope you're not assuming that black immigrants at elite schools definitely got there via AA.

I think it is pretty obvious that the most qualified Blacks are the ones that benefit the most from affirmative action. I know that it sounds counter-intuitive, but consider that the best qualified Blacks are virtually guaranteed admission to schools. Note that I'm not suggesting that they wouldn't have gotten in if it were not for affirmative action. Certainly, many Blacks don't need affirmative action. Still, affirmative action virtually guarantees admission for Blacks with certain creditials.

Just to crystalize the point, consider a law school example. Say I have a 3.8/172. I have the creditials to get in to HLS without affirmative action. I would even say I have a good shot. Still, I get the boost and I'm in...guaranteed. There is no guess work involved. It doesn't diminish my acheivements or work, it is just inevitable since there aren't too many 3.8/172 Blacks. I tend to think that affirmative action benefits the most academically qualified Blacks.

While quotas are illegal per say, schools certainly are aware of the percentage of Blacks they've admitted. The statistics indicate at the UG level that schools are neglecting to admit American born Blacks for foreign born Blacks (hence benefit more). Given my explanation above, this isn't surprising. Thus, it seems foreign born Blacks benefit the most from Affirmative Action at elite schools irrespective of whether or not they would have needed the boost to get in under a color blind admissions system.




 




I actually think thats untrue.  The biggest mistake being made in all the research and in many of the posts in this thread is the tendency to conflate foreign born blacks and their offspring/decendants.  For the reasons Moni articulated I think you would be hard pressed to find a huge portion of foreign born and raised blacks in the nation's elite schools.   Perhaps you would find a few more foreign born but American raised individuals but the vast majority of the  population being discussed is American born and raised.  Unless we're going to adopt a LePen-esque vision of the identity we'd do well to be a little more precise in our terms.

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Re: Do foreign born blacks get AA?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 09:42:18 PM »
sure, although anecdotal I attend and have friends at many of the schools studied.  

Kirk Lazarus

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Re: Do foreign born blacks get AA?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2007, 12:18:03 AM »
I think it is pretty obvious that the most qualified Blacks are the ones that benefit the most from affirmative action.
Okay.

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I know that it sounds counter-intuitive, but consider that the best qualified Blacks are virtually guaranteed admission to schools.
Um...that's true for every race. The best qualified whites, asians, hispanics etc are virtually guaranteed admission to schools. All this proves is that schools want qualified people...isn't that a no-brainer?

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Note that I'm not suggesting that they wouldn't have gotten in if it were not for affirmative action. Certainly, many Blacks don't need affirmative action. Still, affirmative action virtually guarantees admission for Blacks with certain creditials.

Yea exactly. Every black person doesn't need affirmative action!

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Just to crystalize the point, consider a law school example. Say I have a 3.8/172. I have the creditials to get in to HLS without affirmative action. I would even say I have a good shot. Still, I get the boost and I'm in...guaranteed. There is no guess work involved. It doesn't diminish my acheivements or work, it is just inevitable since there aren't too many 3.8/172 Blacks. I tend to think that affirmative action benefits the most academically qualified Blacks.
Affirmative action benefits the most academically qualified blacks =/= affirmative action benefits academically qualified blacks the most. So your lengthy explanation still doesn't prove the point you claim is true. Try again?

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While quotas are illegal per say, schools certainly are aware of the percentage of Blacks they've admitted.
Okay.

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The statistics indicate at the UG level that schools are neglecting to admit American born Blacks for foreign born Blacks (hence benefit more).
Umm...NO. The statistics indicate that foreign born blacks are overrepresented while American born blacks are underrepresented. That is all they indicate. The motive you ascribe to schools (that they are neglecting American born blacks in favor of foreign born blacks) is an entirely unsubstantiated assumption on your part. How do you know that it simply isn't that foreign blacks have better credentials than American born blacks and secure admission that way?

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Given my explanation above, this isn't surprising.
Stating an assumption and an explanation supported with evidence are two different things. Your "explanation" basically takes for granted what you should be proving.

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Thus, it seems foreign born Blacks benefit the most from Affirmative Action at elite schools irrespective of whether or not they would have needed the boost to get in under a color blind admissions system.
And now we're back to square one: the opinion you tried to pass off as fact. How about you try again and this time actually explain and support this statement instead of just restating it several times over.

I'm sorry to be snarky but it's pretty irritating that you're taking your opinions as fact, using these opinions to establish other opinions, and end up with the very statement you were supposed to prove but didn't.

First, it doesn't matter if every black needs affirmative action or not. If you check the box, you get affirmative action. It is as simple as that. It isn't a difficult concept to understand. Second, the best qualified numerically of any other race are NOT guaranteed admission as are Blacks. I find it amusing that you would chastise someone on passing off opinions as facts.  Third, look at your sentence that I bolded for you. If those are the blacks being admitted, then those are the blacks benefitting from the program. I don't understand what your point of contention is. Perhaps you should explain. If you are suggesting that Foreign born Blacks don't receive affirmative action, then that is just false. If you're suggesting that the amount of foreign born Blacks being admitted has no impact on the number of American born Blacks that would've been admitted, then I find that very difficult to believe. Lani Gunier and Henry Louis Gates have both done research describing the preference of elite institutions of foreign born Blacks. Certainly, it isn't an idea that I made up and it is readily accesible on the Web.

Consider this: You have group A consisting of 100 applicants and group B consisting of 100 applicants. Both groups receive some sort of boost in the admissions process. Group A's applicants all have at least a 3.6/1480 (old scale). Group B's applicants all have a limit of 3.5/1360. Let's assume that 40 from group A are admitted while 5 from group B are admitted. Now ask yourself in this hypothetical which group benefitted the most from the boost by applying it to foreign born blacks v. American born blacks just for arguments sake. You could argue that it is a moot point because the 40 from group A could have conceivably gotten in without any boost at all, but of course reality suggests otherwise. The reality is, most blacks need affirmative action in order to get into elite undergraduate institutions. Also consider that elite schools tend to keep their Black population at general percentage of the student population. So it is a zero sum game really. Everytime one Black gets in, that means another Black will not. It isn't that schools are consciously preferring foreign born Blacks over American born blacks, it is that the schools are preferring the best qualified Blacks period and those just happen to be more from group A. I don't know why this is so troubling to understand. Its the same idea that wealthier Blacks benefit more from affirmative action than less wealthy Blacks (and this tends to be correlated since foreign born students tend to come from better educated and wealthier families than most African Americans).

If you're hung up on the "benefit more/most" idea then you simply should think about it more.

The interesting debate is the one that OSA and Moni are proposing. Namely, that we're confusing foreign born with kids that are actually American born, but their parents are foreign. Since I respect OSA and Moni, I tend to believe their information is accurate. The research tends to put foreign born blacks born from the West Indies or Africa, but educated primarily (primary or secondary school) in the US and American born Blacks who are the descendants of immigrants in the same group. Both Moni and OSA are correct to point out the discrepancy.  Certainly foreign born does not mean "foreign born and raised."

Oh and I find it amusing that you indicated that my anlysis was circular. Circular would be "Foreign born blacks benefit from affirmative action more than American born blacks because they are foriegn born." Of course, I noted a reason why they benefit more (they are simply more numerically qualified). You said this: Affirmative action benefits the most academically qualified blacks =/= affirmative action benefits academically qualified blacks the most. So your lengthy explanation still doesn't prove the point you claim is true. Try again?" That's exactly what it proves for two reasons: 1) the most academically  qualified blacks in a particular admissions pool are the ones that generally get admitted. There are some exceptional cases, but not enough to disprove this general idea. 2) there are a limited number of slots for admits. I don't understand how you're not seeing this.




 

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Re: Do foreign born blacks get AA?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2007, 08:59:51 PM »
Just wondering if an immigrant from Nigeria or something who got an UG degree in the U.S. qualifies for AA. I'm asking cause there is the debate going on of blacks from america being different from those who immigrated from africa voluntarily.

They're international students. US Schools LOVE international students. 
At my Catholic UG, it was actually easier for them to recruit kids from Africa, than it was to get black kids from Philly to come to school. In the US we had a reputation as a "white school," in Africa, it was a free education at a great Catholic School.

Not that we were overloaded with kids from Kenya, the scholarship money just wasn't there...

Hmm, I don't think this is necessarily true.  We're more of a novelty than a recruiting priority, based on my experience and other intl kids I know. 

Just want to dispell the myth that schools are eagerly throwing money at tons of intls, because that simply isn't true. In fact, when I applied to undegrad certain schools didn't even consider international students for need based or merit scholarships.

That's the whole point.  Schools love foreign students (this is ass true of institutions in other countries in regard to Americans) because they pay a lot to be there.  Oxford and Cambridge, for example, charge something like 3 or 4 times tutition to international students, and thus admit huge numbers of them into masters programs to make money,