Seton Hall vs. Rutgers-Newark

[mgoblue85]

I'm looking at a couple of T2 schools in the New York area, and these two schools from Jersey emerged.  I wouldn't mind practicing in New Jersey.  The tri-state area (NY, NJ, CT) is one of my targets.

The reason why I'm posting this is because I feel like lawyers in the area are starting to favor Seton Hall over Rutgers-Newark, much to my surprise.  Every single lawyer that I've talked to has said something like "Rutgers-Newark used to considered superior, but now we don't know.  If you'd ask me, Seton Hall is getting better while Rutgers-Newark has declined."  One lawyer actually tried to explain to me why this is happening.  He said that while Seton Hall University is investing millions of dollars to make their law school their gem (much like Fordham), Rutgers-Newark (a public school), is suffering from state budget cuts.  The state seems to be investing more, he says, in science-based education at the expense of everything else (including law).  The investment from Seton Hall, coupled with the divestment (sort of) by the state of NJ, can explain why Seton Hall has risen pretty sharply in the span of just 5 years while Rutgers-Newark has fallen at the same rate during the same time span.

This is sort of surprising, since I just assumed Rutgers-Newark was better, but since lawyers have told me otherwise, I want to get some input from boards like this one.

My own research seems to have confirmed the lawyers' recommendations.

1.  Seton Hall's ranking has climbed over the years while Rutgers-Newark's has fallen.  In the latest USNews ranking, Seton Hall is 70th and Rutgers-Newark is 80th.
2.  Seton Hall has almost as many lawyers in NJ as BOTH Rutgers campuses, according to Martindale.  Apparently, Rutgers-Newark and Rutgers-Camden cannot be separated on Martindale. 
3.  Seton Hall has a respectable number of placements in New York City, and newer graduates are getting placements in NYC at growing rates.  For instance, in the Martindale search, if you look at lawyers whose admissions was less than 5 years, the number for Rutgers (both campuses) is 84 versus 75 from Seton Hall.  I assume, then, that Seton Hall is at least tied with Rutgers-Newark since the two campuses are not separated.  It's hard to imagine only 9 from Rutgers-Camden in NYC, but I could be wrong.
4.  Seton Hall apparently has nicer facilities only a block away from Penn Station.  Rutgers-Newark isn't bad, but it's 3-4 blocks further.  Don't know if I want to walk that distance at night.  The Newark campuses of both schools are a little bit of a turn off.
5.  Hard factors are now favoring Seton Hall over Rutgers-Newark, again a surprise.  For the FT program (my aim), Seton Hall has an average LSAT range of 158-160-162, whereas Rutgers-Newark only has a range of 154-158-161.  The lower range from Rutgers-Newark is a little troubling. Their GPA ranges (3.00-3.36-3.60 for Seton Hall and 3.06-3.32-3.55 for Rutgers-Newark) are essentially a wash.

Rutgers-Newark has a name, but I don't think that matters with lawyers, only average people on the street.  The number of lawyers for both in major matros outside of the tri-state area is very unremarkable (less than 50 in most cases, which is pretty amazing since Martindale has all lawyers from all years).  Rutgers-Newark does have an edge over Seton Hall though.  I hesitate to call it decisive because they're both so low (75 vs. 40 is still bad, and keep in mind 75 is from both Rutgers campuses). 

With that being said, I'm still a little unsure.  If it comes down to Seton Hall versus Rutgers and the COSTS ARE THE SAME, I still don't know.  Rutgers has a name, but I don't think I want to choose a law school just because of that.  Plus, the searchs/lawyers indicate this name may not be positive in the tri-state area anymore, at least w/r to Seton Hall.


Please leave your thoughts!  I'm a little conflicted here.

[Considering_Law]

I would be interested in hearing what others had to say as well.  I just got my acceptance to Seton Hall today (having previously been accepted to Rutgers-Newark).  So now I'm trying to decide between the two.  I think for me it's gonna come down to the financial aid packet, Rutgers being a public school and me being a resident of NJ decreases the tuition significantly than that from Seton Hall.  However, a lot of lawyers I've spoken to who have went to Rutgers and Seton hall have told me that a)they wish they had gone to seton hall b) they were glad they went to Seton hall.  One Rutgers alumni explained it as being that Rutgers was a public school, the alumni doesn't have as strong a network as Seton hall, they feel that since they had it hard at Rutgers so should you.  Whereas Seton Hall alumni really look out for recent grads, more of a sense of pride in the school.

Personally, I visited Seton Hall for an open house and loved the environment/atmosphere.  It felt soo welcoming and they really cater to the students.  I didn't feel that same way from Rutgers staff.  They kind of downplayed student involvement.

But eventhough ideally I would like to attend Seton hall, alot is really gonna depend on the financial aspect.

[mgoblue85]

Another interesting stat is bar passage rates, as follows...

Seton Hall:
NJ: 82%
NY: 84%

Rutgers-Newark:
NJ: 73%
NY: 78%

Seton Hall beats Rutgers-Newark in both categories, by 9% in NJ and 6% in NY. 

Another telling stat.  According to the latest version of USNEWS, an impressive 92.1% of Seton Hall grads had obtained employment by graduation.  This compared to only 79.0% for Rutgers-Newark.

I think we all expected Rutgers-Newark to be stronger on numbers, but the opposite is true.  In every measureable numerical category (LSAT, GPA (slightly), bar passage, employment upon graduation), Seton Hall is stronger. 

Considering_Law, getting the 9k/year scholarship from Seton Hall will make the decision a little easier for you, because the cost will then be the same.

Also, I was disturbed by the previous posts about Rutgers-Newark vs. Seton Hall, because apparently it's been discussed before in recent years on this board.  Maybe in 2005 things were different, but now, I clearly see an upward trajectory for Seton Hall and a downward trajectory for Rutgers-Newark.  Just look at the numbers, if nothing else.  Maybe those posters were insecure Rutgers-Newark students.  It's eerily similar to the vibe you get at the regular Rutgers campus.  I wouldn't want to be a part of that, even if I had to pay more money. 

The only thing about Rutgers-Newark is name recognition.  That's it.

[Captain]

Here's what you need to know about Rutgers, IMHO:

1) Rutgers-Camden is a MUCH MUCH MUCH better law school.
2) Neither law school is REALLY Rutgers, because New Brunswick/Piscataway is the only REAL Rutgers campus.
3) Out of the three law schools in NJ, two of them are Rutgers.

If you want to practice in NJ in smalllaw, then it doesn't matter. You can go anywhere, maybe even Cooley, and if you are marginally competent, you can find some small-firm success in NJ.

[mgoblue85]

What about St. Johns?

[Captain]

What about St. Johns?

TTT HTH

/xoxo

[RUMike]

I agree that SHU is on the upswing and RU-N on the downswing. Damn state of NJ needs to get their acts together and fast.

The relationship between Rutgers-NB and the side campuses is almost non-existent. The better choice, especially with money from SHU, is SHU.

[bamf]

What about St. Johns?

TTT HTH

/xoxo

rough


anyways, this thread belongs on the "where should I go" thread.  I like things to be organized correctly.  Thanks.

[mgoblue85]

Yeah, I think I should go with SHU and not for some fleeting prestige.  I thought this thread was needed because there were so many others that really pumped up Rutgers-Newark using no logic or numbers at all, just random bs.  That certaintly didn't line up with my research so far, and it seems like most people are in agreement on my conclusions.  I would welcome a dissenting opinion from a Rutgers-Newark student or someone who wants to go there.

Still a long way to go, though, so hopefully I'll get into better schools and it won't come down to this.

[Ali]

To OP

Rutgers Camden is located minutes from Philadelphia. It may be more telling to search for job placement in Philly, rather than compare it to SHU or RutgersNewark.