Law School Discussion

Chicago Countdown Thread

Brito

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2007, 11:10:36 PM »
I don't really have anything to contribute here, but this is the best thread ever.  I love you people!

Brito, we love you for starting this craziness!

Please jump in!

Nah, my philosophy background is too shallow to contribute anything substantive to this discussion.  I'm just enjoying reading all this.  :)  On the one hand, I hope you get into Harvard.  But secretly, I hope we both end up at Chicago...

How about we both end up at Harvard? Or for that matter, how about we ALL (and by all, I mean everyone on this thread so far) end up at Harvard or Chicago?  I want to go to school with all you guys!

Me too!  I think I would pick Chicago, though. 

EEtoJD

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2007, 11:11:02 PM »
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Yes, but to say that the "borderline" varies from time to time and person to person means you risk making any resolutions you draw relativistic.

This is true, but it may be the only resolution. Like I said, though, we should be avoiding the definition of formal logic (systems of logic) as we know them to come to this resolution.

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Eliminating the vagueness of language is also not always possible - just take translation from English language to formal logic symbols.  Most sentences are capable of being expressed in symbols, but some you aren't going to be able to, maybe because of vagueness in how the sentence is expressed or even vagueness in the scope of a given quantifier.

Ah, but I didn't say that we should eliminate the vagueness of language. In fact, Hanfling's resolution embraces it, and recognizes that it's caused not just by humanity as a group, but by humans as individuals. You do have a point, though: how does the point where we begin to hesitate vary? From time to time and person to person, but how do we know when we begin to hesitate. And here's how: it's a feeling (ooh, metaphysical).

You get a little prickle in the back of your neck when you feel like someone is drifting too close to you when you're driving. Eventually, you'll swerve to avoid them. How did you determine the point when you decided to swerve. Unless you know exactly where your car and their car are with respect to each other (a lot of people think they know, but most don't), then you have no hard-and-fast definition. It was a feeling you had. You thought, "If they get any closer, they're going to hit me. I'd better move!" So you do. It's these feelings that are incorporated into everyday language. It's these feelings that make it so hard to get computers to make decisions like we do. How do you program a feeling? Fuzzy logic? Hardly. AI? Not quite yet... but maybe one day. And then the machines take over.  ;D

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So at best, eliminating vagueness and/or having personalized "borderlines" for each person is an incomplete resolution of the paradox.

I don't think this paradox has a single resolution, if any. The resolution, in a sense, is a feeling.

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Also, the other part about the "if" part being more true than the "then" part doesn't hold either - if you try to use the formal definition of conditionals (which I assume you are, since you're bringing in modus ponens), then you can't say that the antecedent is more true than the consequent.  It doesn't work that way.  Granted, if the "if" is true, then the "then" has to be true, or the entire conditional itself is false.  You don't say that the "if" is more true than the "then" - it's either True or False.

Again, we should be avoiding current formulations of formal logic if we hope to come to a resolution.

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EDIT: Whoops, forgot to address the 2nd quote: if the word "heap" can't be defined and consistently applied within a sentence/statement/argument, then yes, it is vague.  That is why people don't use "heap" arguments or any other form of slippery slope arguments, because they're logical fallacies.  The human language is vague, but it is possible to argue without using fuzzy logic.

People use "heap" arguments all the time! In fact, they're all over the law! What's an adult? A child? What's a lake? What is hot? Cold? Bald? Strong? Weak? We choose to assign values to these words, usually as a society, so we can make decisions based on these words. But the legal drinking age varies across the world, because different societies came to different agreements about what those words mean.

If we needed a hard-and-fast definition for the word heap, believe me, we'd come up with one (and by we, I mean lawyers).

EEtoJD

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2007, 11:13:47 PM »
I don't really have anything to contribute here, but this is the best thread ever.  I love you people!

Brito, we love you for starting this craziness!

Please jump in!

Nah, my philosophy background is too shallow to contribute anything substantive to this discussion.  I'm just enjoying reading all this.  :)  On the one hand, I hope you get into Harvard.  But secretly, I hope we both end up at Chicago...

How about we both end up at Harvard? Or for that matter, how about we ALL (and by all, I mean everyone on this thread so far) end up at Harvard or Chicago?  I want to go to school with all you guys!

That would be awesome. Except not Harvard or Chicago, CLS. CLS, damn it!  ;D

Brito

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2007, 11:15:35 PM »

That would be awesome. Except not Harvard or Chicago, CLS. CLS, damn it!  ;D

You are hereby banished from my thread, Troll!

Okay, you can stay, but you have to grovel. 

And CLS seems pretty awesome, too.

EEtoJD

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2007, 11:17:49 PM »

Really? Reasons? And I believe this hijack is totally appropriate, since this thread IS in honor of Chicago :)

And EE, I just started reading Terry Pratchett again a few minutes ago, and my brain died.  I will be back with more arguments though! 

OK, seriously, we should all pick Harvard if we get in. We can pwn Harvard. HARVpwned.

What are you reading? The Discworld novels rule.

Brito

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2007, 11:19:41 PM »

Really? Reasons? And I believe this hijack is totally appropriate, since this thread IS in honor of Chicago :)

And EE, I just started reading Terry Pratchett again a few minutes ago, and my brain died.  I will be back with more arguments though! 

OK, seriously, we should all pick Harvard if we get in. We can pwn Harvard. HARVpwned.

What are you reading? The Discworld novels rule.

YP.

EEtoJD

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2007, 11:20:02 PM »

That would be awesome. Except not Harvard or Chicago, CLS. CLS, damn it!  ;D

You are hereby banished from my thread, Troll!

Okay, you can stay, but you have to grovel. 

And CLS seems pretty awesome, too.

OK, OK. I love Chicago. I love the Daleys. I absolutely love corruption. I love the El. Please let me stay!!

Brito

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2007, 11:21:18 PM »

That would be awesome. Except not Harvard or Chicago, CLS. CLS, damn it!  ;D

You are hereby banished from my thread, Troll!

Okay, you can stay, but you have to grovel. 

And CLS seems pretty awesome, too.
, t
OK, OK. I love Chicago. I love the Daleys. I absolutely love corruption. I love the El. Please let me stay!!

Only if you love Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, too.

Brito

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2007, 11:23:53 PM »
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YP.

???

I don't think we'll get yield-protected, though.

EEtoJD

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Re: Chicago Countdown Thread
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2007, 11:24:29 PM »

Really? Reasons? And I believe this hijack is totally appropriate, since this thread IS in honor of Chicago :)

And EE, I just started reading Terry Pratchett again a few minutes ago, and my brain died.  I will be back with more arguments though! 

OK, seriously, we should all pick Harvard if we get in. We can pwn Harvard. HARVpwned.

What are you reading? The Discworld novels rule.

Yes, Discworld!  I'm only on the 2nd in the series, The Light Fantastic, but I love it already. And I read Good Omens not too long ago.

It's great. You'll love it. On a semi-related note, but fantasy, I highly recommend the Elric saga (specifically, Elric of Melniboné, The Sailor on the Seas of Fate, and The Weird of the White Wolf). A little hard to find, but I found all three books (they're short) in one volume on ebay.