Law School Discussion

Poll

Which box would you check given my heritage?

Black
17 (77.3%)
Middle Eastern
1 (4.5%)
Other
4 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: January 19, 2007, 11:45:26 AM

Am I Black or Middle Eastern?

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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2006, 02:30:08 PM »
In my previous post, I wanted to show that race and ethnicity are different and explain why I said that “race doesn’t exist, that it is a classification created in our culture.”
I believe that accomplished both of those things.

In terms of biology, I agree that race does not exist. But the question on the application is not one of science but culture.

I already know this, I feel like I have said it a million times but maybe I am not being clear so I’ll say it again. Earlier I stated that “race doesn’t exist, and that it is a classification created by our culture.” In my previous post, I wanted to explain WHY I said that. I wrote part duex to support that race does not exist in biology and that it is a classification created in our culture. Obviously I agree that the race question on the application is of culture and not of science.

If ethnicity has to do with self identification, many more options should be included on ethnic identity question. This is not the case. One is given a narrow set of options and instructed to choose.

Just because more options aren’t given on an application doesn’t disprove that ethnicity deals with self-identification. I believe that ethnicity has to with self-identification and whereas race is a classification created by our culture. This is the difference between the two and  I stated this previously in more detail. You are using definitions from Webster’s dictionary to demonstrate that these two are essentially identical…but I don’t think they are.

I do find your definitions of race and ethnicity more comprehensive, however I believe that it is safe practice to refer to the explanation of a term from a widely used source i.e. Webster’s Dictionary to alleviate side bars for what a word/term means.

What about Dictionary.com?

Race-
A group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
A population so related.
An arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

Ethnicity-
Ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association.
Identity with or membership in a particular racial, national, or cultural group and observance of that group's customs, beliefs, and language.

What about Wikipedia?

Race- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race

Ethnicity- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity

These sites may show that race and ethnicity can be related but they are different and NOT “essentially identical” like you believe. You stated earlier that you believe your race is Somali….how is that possible excluding the Webster definition? I think that Somali is your ethnicity…and you don’t agree? Why?

These two words (race & ethnicity), used separately to gather the same information on applications, leads me to conclude that they are indeed “interchangeable” in this respect.

Just because race and ethnicity are misused doesn’t make them “essentially identical” like you said earlier. By giving you the defintions above, Ive tried to show that race and ethnicity are NOT essentially identical.

Here is where we disagree:

1.You believe race and ethnicity are “essentially identical”. I definitely do NOT think so and have tried to show the difference between the two in my previous post.

2. You believe that your race is Somali because of Webster’s dictionary.  I believe that your ethnicity is Somali because ethnicity deals with self-identification and all that jazz I mentioned earlier.

Where we agree:

1.Race does not exist in biology, but it is a classification that has been created in our culture. (I hope I never have to type this sentence again in my life)

2.That applications don’t give a person a lot of options to choose from.


So um yeah I don’t really know what to say..if you don’t think I’ve shown that race and ethnicity are different then prove that they are "essentially identical." You’ve already agreed with part duex by stating that race does not exist in biology and agreeing that race is a classification created in our culture.   


Again you have provided a very cohesive interpretation on what you believe race & ethnicity to mean. You have also quoted to your benefit several times the statement I made “in essence identical”.

Let’s take another look at what I stated in its entirety.

“There seems to be some confusion as to whether the disclosure of ones heritage is to identify their race or ethnicity while these two words are in essence identical.”

My apology if this is still confusing. This statement refers to the context in how question is asked on applications. Not the finite definitions of race and ethnicity in the cosmos.  Once again, the terms race & ethnicity are used separately on applications to obtain the same information.

The key to understanding the question on the application is to understand what the question is trying to resolve, which I believe to be is what distinguishes the person from the rest of the options.

Race, as defined by the definition you have provided, is arbitrary. Therefore, a Somali could check Middle Eastern or Black for the question and not be wrong (the whole point of this thread).

Here is where we disagree


Your definitions of race and ethnicity, while much more comprehensive, are void when referring to the question on applications. Again, I say this because the question is worded with both race and ethnicity to obtain the same information.
   
Conclusion

I have always checked blk or blk/wht when possible and will continue to do so. After all, most people are not aware that the Middle East includes countries in Africa and assume that the Middle East refers to Arabs. Therefore, a Somali checking Middle Eastern could be misleading. In addition, as “b.red.chica” so eloquently stated, “If whitey can't tell the difference between you and an Ethiopian, then there isn't a difference at all as far as checking boxes goes”.

P.S. wikipedia is great for leisurely reading but I would never use it as a source. Remember, wikipedia can be edited by any with an account and can be biased and opinionated. For example, a person named keepup could log in and enter a completely different definition for a word that contradicts what is used by other “locked” sources.  ;D



Why would I go into Wikipedia? That’s crazy. I didn’t even know someone could do that. ??? There are plenty of sources that demonstrate race and ethnicity are not in essence identical...go take a look. Also dont apologize.

Remember this?

3.Somali would be your ethnicity not your race, your race would be black

If Somali is not my race, then according to the definition of race, I do not have a shared interest with other Somalis, nor do I have their habits or characteristics.

I believe that I do have shared interests, habits and characteristics of other Somalis.


1. Ethnicity and race are not identical…they are totally different despite what you may have put together concerning Webster.

“In essence identical” was the term that I used. I would say that “classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background” and “class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics” could be used interchangeably. For you to state “they are totally different” makes absolutely no sense.


This is why I wrote about the difference between race and ethnicity because you failed to realize it.

So let me ask you one more question, and Im sure you'll either avoid this or type another paragraph not addressing the issue that I'm talking about.

Aside from applications, Do you think that race and ethnicity are different?

The answer to this question is simple: YES or NO.

Lets see if you answer this...yes or no.

As this thread illustrates, it is not a simple question. So I'll go with the option of "avoiding"  We'll agree to disagree.

Check this link for examples of problems with wikipedia
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20060103.html



I never said there werent problems with Wikipedia...so whats the website for?  ??? I said that there were OTHER sources proving my point. Anyways I figured you would avoid my question  :D  We can agree to disagree, as I said before. No worries. If theres not anything else...have a Merry Christmas!

suge

Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2006, 02:55:19 PM »
In my previous post, I wanted to show that race and ethnicity are different and explain why I said that “race doesn’t exist, that it is a classification created in our culture.”
I believe that accomplished both of those things.

In terms of biology, I agree that race does not exist. But the question on the application is not one of science but culture.

I already know this, I feel like I have said it a million times but maybe I am not being clear so I’ll say it again. Earlier I stated that “race doesn’t exist, and that it is a classification created by our culture.” In my previous post, I wanted to explain WHY I said that. I wrote part duex to support that race does not exist in biology and that it is a classification created in our culture. Obviously I agree that the race question on the application is of culture and not of science.

If ethnicity has to do with self identification, many more options should be included on ethnic identity question. This is not the case. One is given a narrow set of options and instructed to choose.

Just because more options aren’t given on an application doesn’t disprove that ethnicity deals with self-identification. I believe that ethnicity has to with self-identification and whereas race is a classification created by our culture. This is the difference between the two and  I stated this previously in more detail. You are using definitions from Webster’s dictionary to demonstrate that these two are essentially identical…but I don’t think they are.

I do find your definitions of race and ethnicity more comprehensive, however I believe that it is safe practice to refer to the explanation of a term from a widely used source i.e. Webster’s Dictionary to alleviate side bars for what a word/term means.

What about Dictionary.com?

Race-
A group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
A population so related.
An arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

Ethnicity-
Ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association.
Identity with or membership in a particular racial, national, or cultural group and observance of that group's customs, beliefs, and language.

What about Wikipedia?

Race- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race

Ethnicity- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity

These sites may show that race and ethnicity can be related but they are different and NOT “essentially identical” like you believe. You stated earlier that you believe your race is Somali….how is that possible excluding the Webster definition? I think that Somali is your ethnicity…and you don’t agree? Why?

These two words (race & ethnicity), used separately to gather the same information on applications, leads me to conclude that they are indeed “interchangeable” in this respect.

Just because race and ethnicity are misused doesn’t make them “essentially identical” like you said earlier. By giving you the defintions above, Ive tried to show that race and ethnicity are NOT essentially identical.

Here is where we disagree:

1.You believe race and ethnicity are “essentially identical”. I definitely do NOT think so and have tried to show the difference between the two in my previous post.

2. You believe that your race is Somali because of Webster’s dictionary.  I believe that your ethnicity is Somali because ethnicity deals with self-identification and all that jazz I mentioned earlier.

Where we agree:

1.Race does not exist in biology, but it is a classification that has been created in our culture. (I hope I never have to type this sentence again in my life)

2.That applications don’t give a person a lot of options to choose from.


So um yeah I don’t really know what to say..if you don’t think I’ve shown that race and ethnicity are different then prove that they are "essentially identical." You’ve already agreed with part duex by stating that race does not exist in biology and agreeing that race is a classification created in our culture.   


Again you have provided a very cohesive interpretation on what you believe race & ethnicity to mean. You have also quoted to your benefit several times the statement I made “in essence identical”.

Let’s take another look at what I stated in its entirety.

“There seems to be some confusion as to whether the disclosure of ones heritage is to identify their race or ethnicity while these two words are in essence identical.”

My apology if this is still confusing. This statement refers to the context in how question is asked on applications. Not the finite definitions of race and ethnicity in the cosmos.  Once again, the terms race & ethnicity are used separately on applications to obtain the same information.

The key to understanding the question on the application is to understand what the question is trying to resolve, which I believe to be is what distinguishes the person from the rest of the options.

Race, as defined by the definition you have provided, is arbitrary. Therefore, a Somali could check Middle Eastern or Black for the question and not be wrong (the whole point of this thread).

Here is where we disagree


Your definitions of race and ethnicity, while much more comprehensive, are void when referring to the question on applications. Again, I say this because the question is worded with both race and ethnicity to obtain the same information.
   
Conclusion

I have always checked blk or blk/wht when possible and will continue to do so. After all, most people are not aware that the Middle East includes countries in Africa and assume that the Middle East refers to Arabs. Therefore, a Somali checking Middle Eastern could be misleading. In addition, as “b.red.chica” so eloquently stated, “If whitey can't tell the difference between you and an Ethiopian, then there isn't a difference at all as far as checking boxes goes”.

P.S. wikipedia is great for leisurely reading but I would never use it as a source. Remember, wikipedia can be edited by any with an account and can be biased and opinionated. For example, a person named keepup could log in and enter a completely different definition for a word that contradicts what is used by other “locked” sources.  ;D



Why would I go into Wikipedia? That’s crazy. I didn’t even know someone could do that. ??? There are plenty of sources that demonstrate race and ethnicity are not in essence identical...go take a look. Also dont apologize.

Remember this?

3.Somali would be your ethnicity not your race, your race would be black

If Somali is not my race, then according to the definition of race, I do not have a shared interest with other Somalis, nor do I have their habits or characteristics.

I believe that I do have shared interests, habits and characteristics of other Somalis.


1. Ethnicity and race are not identical…they are totally different despite what you may have put together concerning Webster.

“In essence identical” was the term that I used. I would say that “classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background” and “class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics” could be used interchangeably. For you to state “they are totally different” makes absolutely no sense.


This is why I wrote about the difference between race and ethnicity because you failed to realize it.

So let me ask you one more question, and Im sure you'll either avoid this or type another paragraph not addressing the issue that I'm talking about.

Aside from applications, Do you think that race and ethnicity are different?

The answer to this question is simple: YES or NO.

Lets see if you answer this...yes or no.

As this thread illustrates, it is not a simple question. So I'll go with the option of "avoiding"  We'll agree to disagree.

Check this link for examples of problems with wikipedia
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20060103.html



I never said there werent problems with Wikipedia...so whats the website for?  ??? I said that there were OTHER sources proving my point. Anyways I figured you would avoid my question  :D  We can agree to disagree, as I said before. No worries. If theres not anything else...have a Merry Christmas!


Now your just being argumentative.

"I didn’t even know someone could do that. ???"

That was the reason I posted the link. I sincerely thought you would find it interesting. For the record, I am avoiding your question because I do not want to engage in a debate that will lead no where. I believe it can be argued both ways.

Happy Holidays to you too.

keepup

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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2006, 04:06:26 PM »
As this thread illustrates, it is not a simple question. So I'll go with the option of "avoiding"  We'll agree to disagree.

Check this link for examples of problems with wikipedia
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20060103.html
[/quote]

I never said there werent problems with Wikipedia...so whats the website for?  ??? I said that there were OTHER sources proving my point. Anyways I figured you would avoid my question  :D  We can agree to disagree, as I said before. No worries. If theres not anything else...have a Merry Christmas!

[/quote]
Now your just being argumentative.

"I didnt even know someone could do that. ???"

That was the reason I posted the link. I sincerely thought you would find it interesting. For the record, I am avoiding your question because I do not want to engage in a debate that will lead no where. I believe it can be argued both ways.

Happy Holidays to you too.

[/quote]

Yeah I stated that I didnt know that I could go and change wikipedia...never agrued that it didnt have any problems.  ;D Anyways, I agree that the debate isnt going anywhere especially since both sides arent listening/or answering the questions. I dont mean to be argumentative...just stating it like it is. :)

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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2006, 04:21:51 PM »
hmm this debate going nowhere fast...who could've predicted it?   ::)

keepup

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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2006, 08:30:48 PM »
hmm this debate going nowhere fast...who could've predicted it?   ::)

Absolutely no one could have predicted that this would happen. After all, both us at different times stated that we should just agree to disagree...due to the fact that the debate wasnt going anywhere. Who would have known though?

(I know that this was a sarcastic question, so heres a sarcastic response)  ::)

One Step Ahead

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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2006, 09:28:02 PM »
keep working on it.

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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2006, 06:08:31 AM »
keep working on it.

You do the same buddy.  :)

! B L U E WAR R I O R..!

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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2007, 02:58:21 PM »
were you spawned from a color or an area?


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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2007, 03:03:18 PM »
My father is from Somalia (East Africa). The term "black" usually refers to those with African origins. Somalis are Black in appearance. However, Somalia (as well as Sudan) are considered part of the Middle East. In addition, Somali culture parallels Middle Eastern culture in terms of religion (Islamic) and most other customs.

Filling out LS apps prompted me to question this critically.

To complicate matters even further, my mother is Swedish.

Your thoughts?


you are how you define yourself...if you wish to be associated with a Color...then you are black and white...but the world is not made up of black and white countries...sometimes there are inuets...sometimes there are aborigines...

so...stick with Somalian and Swedish...two defining identities...

put yourself in James Brown's shoes...

"Aye'm Somalian and Swedish and proud!"



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Re: Am I Black or Middle Eastern?
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2007, 03:16:41 PM »
putz.