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Author Topic: Russian school children under seige  (Read 4175 times)

ruskiegirl

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2004, 05:05:09 PM »
Besides, if you are a proponent of democracy, which I hope you are, you would concede that these people deserve to have a government of their choosing, not one that is imposed upon them by their occupying forces.

Why do you call the Russian army occupying forces??  Chechnya is a part of Russia, not a former Soviet Republic. 
It is an occupation for all intents and purposes.  Checnnya was anexed by force and has sought its independece and sovereigny for nearly as long as it has been a part of Russia.  And, actually, Checnya is considered a republic -- although not an independent one. 

WULaw

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2004, 05:22:33 PM »
It is an occupation for all intents and purposes. Checnnya was anexed by force and has sought its independece and sovereigny for nearly as long as it has been a part of Russia. And, actually, Checnya is considered a republic -- although not an independent one.

But Chechnya is a Russian republic, like others in the Russian federation.  The Russian government has just as much right to suppress an independence movement as we would if South Carolina withdrew from the Union tomorrow.

In any case, all the people of the former Soviet Union have paid a price for their rejection of socialism.  Vicious nationalist movements, mass unemployment, economies in ruin.  And all this in for for a political system that is far more corrupt and less democratic than before.

What a shame.

 

ruskiegirl

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2004, 05:30:07 PM »
It is an occupation for all intents and purposes. Checnnya was anexed by force and has sought its independece and sovereigny for nearly as long as it has been a part of Russia. And, actually, Checnya is considered a republic -- although not an independent one.

But Chechnya is a Russian republic, like others in the Russian federation.  The Russian government has just as much right to suppress an independence movement as we would if South Carolina withdrew from the Union tomorrow.

In any case, all the people of the former Soviet Union have paid a price for their rejection of socialism.  Vicious nationalist movements, mass unemployment, economies in ruin.  And all this in for for a political system that is far more corrupt and less democratic than before.

What a shame.

 
Generally speaking, American states had more control in becoming a part of the US than did Russian republics that became a part of the Russian Federation.  Furthermore, states have approved their form of governement by ratifying the constitution.  They also have state and local governments which allow them to make laws according to the needs of the local population.  Chechens never had those choices.

WULaw

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2004, 05:45:14 PM »
Generally speaking, American states had more control in becoming a part of the US than did Russian republics that became a part of the Russian Federation. Furthermore, states have approved their form of governement by ratifying the constitution. They also have state and local governments which allow them to make laws according to the needs of the local population. Chechens never had those choices.

I agree.  But another thing to consider is the Chechens won in the mid-1990's.  The got what they claimed they wanted:  autonomy, but not complete independence.  But then they got greedy and began destabilizing the Russian republic of Daghestan.  The worst fear of Russian nationalists came true:  the possibility of Russia itself falling apart like the Soviet Union.

The Russians "re-occupied" Chechnya to settle things, once and for all (what they hoped for anyway).  This time the Russians were successful.  If the Chechen nationalists had just lived their lives and not provoked the Russian government, they could be well on their way to a gradual transistion out of Russia.



ruskiegirl

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2004, 06:27:09 PM »
Generally speaking, American states had more control in becoming a part of the US than did Russian republics that became a part of the Russian Federation. Furthermore, states have approved their form of governement by ratifying the constitution. They also have state and local governments which allow them to make laws according to the needs of the local population. Chechens never had those choices.

I agree.  But another thing to consider is the Chechens won in the mid-1990's.  The got what they claimed they wanted:  autonomy, but not complete independence.  But then they got greedy and began destabilizing the Russian republic of Daghestan.  The worst fear of Russian nationalists came true:  the possibility of Russia itself falling apart like the Soviet Union.

The Russians "re-occupied" Chechnya to settle things, once and for all (what they hoped for anyway).  This time the Russians were successful.  If the Chechen nationalists had just lived their lives and not provoked the Russian government, they could be well on their way to a gradual transistion out of Russia.



I agree with you, but I see no evidence that Russia used the least restrictive means to solve the conflict.  That, I believe, is the source of the problem.  Russia will pick up a gun before it will negotiate.

akwolf

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2004, 05:38:44 AM »
Ruskiegirl:

Please, let me inform you that the United States was NOT built upon some constitutional convention about statehood. This country butchered MILLIONS of indigenous people, and the United States continues to murder indigenous people people around the world.

Getting back to the questions I asked:

(1) My point in asking this question was to see if you were willing to accept the proposition that most Chechans do not endorse terrorism, but you sidestepped this question. Nevertheless, I will argue that not all democratically elected states are moral. If the Chechans were to elect terrorists, the Russian government would be morally obligated to abolish that government. I contend that states that terrorize other ethnic people constitute immoral states.

(2) You elected to go back to the 19th century Russian history. I was hoping you would bring up Stalin. He rounded up and deported to Siberia half the Chechan population. Nevertheless, we can discuss the 19th century. In that century, the various ethnic groups in the Caucasus region fought among each other. The Russians battled and from what I can gather, massacred many of those people. Anyway, the Russians conquered the region (not that it matters much, but at the same time, the United States deported the entire Cherokee population from their homeland to the Indian Territory and then took even that from them -- countless other injustices occurred). Most of the people in the Caucasus region, I contend, welcome Russian goverance. Of course, they would prefer sovereignty, but, as in the instance of this massacre of school children, the Russian government represents the best protection against terrorism. Certainly, the United States is not going to help them, ever. Most people in the Caucasus region do not identify themselves as Russian, but they strongly prefer to be among the Russian Federation.

The Chechan terrorists represent a criminal, evil, element in Russia. The Russain Federation is morally obligated to obliterae that element. I am encouraged by Putin's recent remarks to consider anyone even sympathetic to the Chechan terrorists as terrorists themselves. Still, unless I see some Soviet style response to Chechan terrorism, I will contend that the Russian Federation does not adequately protect its citizens in the Caucasus region.

akwolf

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2004, 06:44:39 AM »
Did I fail to mention that all Chechan terrorists must die? Sometimes I wonder if Satan is a Chechan terrorist. Somebody, please, tell me why even a single Chechan terrorist should live beyond the next hour. Thank you, God, for Russian counter-terrorism, and bless those Russians who have sacrificed their lives in battle. It is my prayer that Russian bullets will find their mark in the heads of Chechan terrorists.

ruskiegirl

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2004, 02:16:38 PM »
Ruskiegirl:

Please, let me inform you that the United States was NOT built upon some constitutional convention about statehood. This country butchered MILLIONS of indigenous people, and the United States continues to murder indigenous people people around the world.

Getting back to the questions I asked:

(1) My point in asking this question was to see if you were willing to accept the proposition that most Chechans do not endorse terrorism, but you sidestepped this question.

I expressly stated in a number of posts that I do not believe that the majority of Chechens either endorse or participate in terrorism.

Please, let me inform you that the United States was NOT built upon some constitutional convention about statehood. This country butchered MILLIONS of indigenous people, and the United States continues to murder indigenous people people around the world.

Thank you for your kind gesture of informing a person who has a degree in Political Science (suma cum laude). ::)  This only makes my point stronger.  The Russians are treating their minority populations in much the same way the Americans have treated indigenous people.  They have imposed upon them a system of government that is not consistent with their religion or culture, they have robbed them of their customs and taken their land.  And, in the long run, the Native Americans are slightly better off than the Chechens and others in that region.


Most of the people in the Caucasus region, I contend, welcome Russian goverance. Most people in the Caucasus region do not identify themselves as Russian, but they strongly prefer to be among the Russian Federation.
Thanks for the history lesson, but I don't need a book to know that you are desperately misled in your analysis of the political dynamics in Chechnya.  I lived in the former Soviet Union for half of my life, and have been visiting every year thereafter.  I know, from personal experience, that Russian governance is neither appreciated nor welcomed in most micro-states and regions that were annexed by force, Chenchnya included.  They welcome Russian governance?!  Like the Native Americans welcomed American governance?  Hell, they're all savages and don't know what's good for them, so let's just be noble and help these hethens. ::)
If they welcomed Russian governance, they wouldn't be willing to die in the process of securing independece.  Let's use some of those LR skills here.

Most people in the Caucasus region do not identify themselves as Russian, but they strongly prefer to be among the Russian Federation.
The only way I would accept this premise is if you were a member of the minority population of one of the micro-states in the Caucus region.  Otherwise, your statement is boldly ignorant.  How can you purport to know what these people prefer?! Once again, if they loved Russia so much, why would they fight for their independence?  The terrorists aren't the only ones that have a separtist agenda.



The Chechan terrorists represent a criminal, evil, element in Russia. The Russain Federation is morally obligated to obliterae that element. I am encouraged by Putin's recent remarks to consider anyone even sympathetic to the Chechan terrorists as terrorists themselves. Still, unless I see some Soviet style response to Chechan terrorism, I will contend that the Russian Federation does not adequately protect its citizens in the Caucasus region.


No arguments here.  Terrorism is wrong.  Period.  No matter who initiates it.

Tobias Beecher

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2004, 05:23:37 PM »
Pretty informative article about the situation in Chechnya from the economist.

http://economist.com/agenda/display...tory_id=3168912

boy Stalin sure likes to treat folks nicely.

 ::)



akwolf

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Re: Russian school children under seige
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2004, 08:09:45 PM »
As I read your reply, I understand that you want to argue for two propositions (among others):

(1) That the Russian Federation imposes a government system upon states of the Caucasus region that is inconsistent with their culture and religion.

(2) That the people of the Caucasus region prefer to form a state separate from the Russian Federation.

I will deny the truth of both propositions. I will concede that Russia conquered the region and the people of the region did not want that. No doubt, probably millions of people indigenous to the Caucasus died trying to maintain their independence. Still, the present situation differs markedly from the past. The people of the Caucasus welcome Russian goverance in at least one important way -- they need the Russian military to protect them from terrorists and the development of a terrorist state in Chechnya. Secondly, the people of the region rely on their membership in the larger Russian Federation for economic development.

The last thing that the people of the Caucasus want is a terrorist state in Chechnya. I'm not sure you agree with that. Even if a bandit society is allowed rebirth in Chechnya -- a society consistent with a minority of cultures in the region -- such a society would be an immoral state. The Russian government, which has historic ties with the people and region, would be obligated to dissolve such a state.

I prefer to defer to sources other than my own interpretations. Your personal history nor mine can have little if any relevance to what constitutes facts in this discussion. Hence, I suggest that the following link to Aleksandr Khalmukhamedov's article can provide some facts. I look forward to reading any article you may suggest.

http://www.ca-c.org/dataeng/bk02.03.khalm.shtml