Why don't blacks work harder in UG and on the LSAT so we can get rid of AA?

[t...]

Let's just hope that when you are called to represent someone you don't botch it and get them sentenced to the chair for a misdemeanor.

[PNym]

Look twinkle toes, this isn't that difficult.

As a "race" black people are only a few hundred years behind in assimilating to the (typically) white mainstream culture, including education, by the way. And, I mean, what’s a few hundred years when it comes to education, culture, and identity, right?

But why the entire race, you may ask? After all, certainly there are middle and upper class blacks that are “unfairly” taking advantage of AA. Why not just look at socioeconomic status for affirmative action?

Well, easy. Because the entire race (or more properly, almost anyyone with a darker skin color) was subjected to slavery and oppression, by the white man and because of white men. This cultural/educational disparity is not something that can be "made up" in a few generations either, despite the impressive efforts of many that are closing that gap. It’ll take some time, and to help close that gap more effectively and expediently, we have affirmative action.

Black people were primarily oppressed and enslaved by other black people. More blacks were enslaved in Africa than were sent to the new world (this claim can be backed by Sowell's research for the essay "The Real History of Slavery.").

Furthermore, it simply wasn't possible for the Europeans to have enslaved sub-Saharan Africans. In order to forcibly capture and detain captives, slavers would need to be able to field an armed force of sufficient size to deter armed resistance. However, because most of the trans-Atlantic slave trade took place before 1820 (when the British navy began to board slave ships), and European medical technology prior to that point in time was not advanced enough to keep Europeans alive for lengthy periods of time when exposed to the microbial fauna of sub-Saharan Africa, it wasn't possible for the Europeans to field armed forces in Africa for the purpose of enslaving.

Therefore, most of the sub-Saharan Africans slaves sent to America were enslaved by other sub-Saharan Africans, and then sold to European traders. Which doesn't seem very surprising (although unfortunate), given the tribal and political fragmentation of Africa, even today.

Furthermore, sub-Saharan Africans were enslaved not because they were dark-skinned, but because they were easy targets because they were so politically fragmented due to the geography of Africa. Tribes and groups with military power were in a position to take advantage of less-militant groups. FWIW, the Arabs enslaved many more sub-Saharan Africans than the Europeans ever did (in fact, more caucasian europeans were enslaved by the Arabs and north Africans than blacks were sent to the Americas. At that juncture in history, the Arabian civilizations were more advanced than the european ones, making the europeans easy targets).

FWIW, there's no real "white culture," either. As many people who have lived abroad can attest, white people are very different; Germans, Russians, Britons, Irish, Scots, Scandanavians, French, Spanish, Italians, Poles, and people from other ethnic groups behave very differently, even more so if they are from America.

Furthermore, education begets education, privilege begets privilege. Blacks have been on the wrong side of this equation for far too long. It's not like blacks are swarming into top schools like a plague, stealing all the spots from otherwise talented whites. Look at the data - there is a glaring dearth of black students at just about every law school. Worry not - your place in the law is certainly not in jeopardy.

 

Well, if you try to obtain privilege thru political means, don't be surprised when other groups begin to compete for access to the same privileges. Or begin to envy and clamor against the politically-privileged should these competitors fail to secure the same privileges. This latter consequence is why I think AA is a flawed policy.

This thread is a joke anyway. Surely there are those blacks that have been able to gain admission to schools on their own merits, without the assistance of affirmative action – I know several of them. Yet you call out an entire race as if no blacks are capable of succeeding without “help.” So from the outset you’re engaging trollish, racist views. And you wonder why H4CS hasn’t taken you seriously?

Of course there are blacks able to succeed on their own merits! The first black graduate of Harvard graduated sometime in the 1920s, back when openly espousing racist views was still socially acceptible. I've never claimed that blacks were incapable of succeeding without help - if you peruse my posts, you'll struggle to find any evidence to support that insinuation. I oppose AA because it's flawed policy with bad consequences, not because I hold any doubts about the intrinsic abilities of black people (a point that doesn't make sense given my stated admiration of Tom Sowell).

And I respond to H4CS not because I want his approval (heavens no) but because I want to show how intellectually bankrupt he is by resorting to banal pandering to stereotypes rather than addressing the substance of my arguments.

[Gengiswump]

Let's just hope that when you are called to represent someone you don't botch it and get them sentenced to the chair for a misdemeanor.

Your honor, you shouldn't hold me in contempt - I'm an excellent coiler!

[PNym]

Let's just hope that when you are called to represent someone you don't botch it and get them sentenced to the chair for a misdemeanor.

If the doctor had graduated from Harvard Med (HMS) without AA and screwed up, people would think that he made an honest mistake, since the HMS enrollment and graduation standards hadn't been compromised.

But since he graduated from HMS under AA and screwed up, people will begin to doubt whether or not graduates who benefitted from AA are actually qualified, since AA policies do compromise HMS enrollment and graduation standards.

I guess from this perspective, it doesn't matter whether or not the doctor erred due to being underqualified; the presence of AA policies causes people to doubt the professional standings of everyone previously favored by AA should one person in the favored group screw up.

[t...]

Remind me again of the link between a medical student being qualified enough to be admitted into Harvard, even with the help of affirmative action, and being underqualified to practice medicine (assuming he graduated).

Also, it seems to me that if affirmative action were removed this student would still have most likely been admitted to at least a reputable state medical school, and again assuming he graduated, would still be practicing medicine. So are you insinuating that Harvard graduated him when they shouldn't have? Or that difference in medical education between Harvard and State U results in more doctor-caused deaths (since Black Doctor was probably qualified to attend State U, but not Harvard)?

[Gengiswump]

You can't.

Welcome to the new world order.

[PNym]

But since he graduated from HMS under AA and screwed up, people will begin to doubt whether or not graduates who benefitted from AA are actually qualified, since AA policies do compromise HMS enrollment and graduation standards.

Wait.

I could name a dozen or more white business leaders with prestigious degrees who effed up.

Does that mean I shouldn't trust any business leaders?  I mean if these guys with their prestigious degrees can be so dumb, how can I believe any business leader is qualified?

Well, I would understand if you began to wonder whether or not the prestigious degree was a genuine certification of value, rather than a worthless piece of paper. And that's the real point I'm trying to make - this incident drew the value of the HMS degree into doubt, especially so since AA does lower standards for the people in the favored groups. This doubt is unfair to anyone from those favored groups who would have done fine without AA, and only serves to polarize people's attitudes against people from the favored groups.

Besides, if a business leader with a prestigious degree couldn't do basic algebra or hold a meeting, wouldn't you start to wonder what's up? That's not to say that the doctor in this anecdote was that grossly underqualified, but the point of my providing the anecdote was to show one instance where an AA recipient messed up something that any HMS grad should have learned.

[t...]

Black people were primarily oppressed and enslaved by other black people.

::coughs, hacks up lung, dies::

Black-lung?

[Gengiswump]

Black people were primarily oppressed and enslaved by other black people.

::coughs, hacks up lung, dies::

I love that PN is conflating enslaved and oppressed.  Awesome.

Black people were primarily oppressed and enslaved by other black people.

::coughs, hacks up lung, dies::

Black-lung?

OH NOES!!!!!11!1!!1!!

[PNym]

Remind me again of the link between a medical student being qualified enough to be admitted into Harvard, even with the help of affirmative action, and being underqualified to practice medicine (assuming he graduated).

I do remember Sowell saying that he heard from friends within Harvard's administration and professorate that HMS had a policy of never failing black students. Combine that policy with a policy of admitting black students who don't mean normal HMS admissions standards and you have the makings of underqualified graduates.

Also, it seems to me that if affirmative action were removed this student would still have most likely been admitted to at least a reputable state medical school, and again assuming he graduated, would still be practicing medicine. So are you insinuating that Harvard graduated him when they shouldn't have? Or that difference in medical education between Harvard and State U results in more doctor-caused deaths (since Black Doctor was probably qualified to attend State U, but not Harvard)?

Well, if the doctor in this case hadn't attended HMS, but had attended a state school, he might have been learning medicine at a pace and depth for which he was more suited (a friend of mine at HMS says the pace is ridiculously frenetic, so you have to be on your toes if you want to learn it all). If he had been learning medicine at a slower pace and in less depth in a state school than what he would have been expected to learn at Harvard, it's possible that the doctor in this case would have learned more, rather than less, reducing the chance that he would screw up.

Furthermore, the doctor might not have been performing the surgery in which he screwed up. He may have gone into radiology or anesthesiology instead, which would have benefitted the hapless patient in this case.