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Author Topic: Why don't blacks work harder in UG and on the LSAT so we can get rid of AA?  (Read 26594 times)

H4CS

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(I don't know how it worked when the guy in question was in school, but today you don't get to be a surgeon just because you went to Harvard.)

Not a licensed surgeon at least.  Now if you excuse me, I have to remove a gallbladder, and this time it's not my own.  @#!*, I don't even know what a gallbladder is.  Good thing I have a half-drunk bottle of port around here somewhere.

PNym

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(I don't know how it worked when the guy in question was in school, but today you don't get to be a surgeon just because you went to Harvard.)

hth.

hey, Pseudo, go back and list some assumptions you've made and we'll tell you which ones we'd like you to support.

Where did I state that going to Harvard was sufficient to allow one to practice surgery?

UNAS

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Remind me again of the link between a medical student being qualified enough to be admitted into Harvard, even with the help of affirmative action, and being underqualified to practice medicine (assuming he graduated).

I do remember Sowell saying that he heard from friends within Harvard's administration and professorate that HMS had a policy of never failing black students. Combine that policy with a policy of admitting black students who don't mean normal HMS admissions standards and you have the makings of underqualified graduates.


Also, it seems to me that if affirmative action were removed this student would still have most likely been admitted to at least a reputable state medical school, and again assuming he graduated, would still be practicing medicine. So are you insinuating that Harvard graduated him when they shouldn't have? Or that difference in medical education between Harvard and State U results in more doctor-caused deaths (since Black Doctor was probably qualified to attend State U, but not Harvard)?


Well, if the doctor in this case hadn't attended HMS, but had attended a state school, he might have been learning medicine at a pace and depth for which he was more suited (a friend of mine at HMS says the pace is ridiculously frenetic, so you have to be on your toes if you want to learn it all). If he had been learning medicine at a slower pace and in less depth in a state school than what he would have been expected to learn at Harvard, it's possible that the doctor in this case would have learned more, rather than less, reducing the chance that he would screw up.

Furthermore, the doctor might not have been performing the surgery in which he screwed up. He may have gone into radiology or anesthesiology instead, which would have benefitted the hapless patient in this case.

You obviously know very little about medical specialties. An anesthesiologist could easily send a patient to glory by administering anesthesia in incorrect amounts.  You seem to have a lot of time on your hands b/c you constantly attempt to awe us with your endless cant on AA and its intrinsic flaws.

My suggestion? Research the different medical specialties.  I'm sure you'll find that Internal Medicine is one of the "easier" ones.

Well, if anesthesiology is indeed more difficult than surgery, then I've made a flawed assumption. But the point I'm trying to make is that if the doctor in this case had gone into a different field, one which was simpler than surgery, he might not have botched the procedure. If anesthesiology is more difficult than surgery, you could swap it with a field that is easier than surgery and my argument would still apply.

In addition, I highly doubt all practicioners of Internal Medicine become surgeons, so there's room in that field for non-surgeons as well.

I'm here to discuss the issue. If I didn't want to discuss the issue, I would stop posting. I'm assuming that you're here to discuss AA as well. If that is so, what would insinuating that "I have a lot of time on my hands" serve to forward the discussion of AA?

You know what, the human brain never ceases to amaze me. Here we have an Asian chap who writes quite eloquently, but can not seem to comprehend the rationale behind AA. As an Asian-American wouldn't your energy be better committed to issues related to consistently out-performing all other races academically, yet the boardrooms, chief executives and high positioned goverment officials are incongrous to the academic accolades you all have made as a race of people.

I guess that is neither here nor there. Consider that you are asking us refute a book full of anecdotal evidence and self loathing. As a African-American I can assure you that one thing we are experts at identifying is self loathing Negroes. Hell, 500 years of torment and oppression yields such occurences no matter the modern cultural contras randomly coming about by black nationalism to reverse such damage.

By the way your gems about slavery contain some distortions. Sub-Saharan Africa implies quite a large region. This was not the case. Most slaves decended from not just West Africa, but morethe region surrounding the Congo. Secondly, it is common knowledge the African slavery was generally thought of us indentured servitude, not the systemic corroding of a person's self image, identity and culture/history (e.g.cutting off genitalia, amputation, theft, educating us to be inferior...etc). I could go on, but you get the idea. It is disturbing to know that a person of color seems to be completely oblivious to the systemic discrimination in place that prevents the very individual promoting a color blind standardized merit based system. @#!* anecdotal, lets go with empirical. The vault 100 partners are clearly visible on their respective firm's website; you tell me how many Asian partners you see. Maybe then you will realize that AA is not only appropriate, but the country lacks more social doorstops than you originally thougt.

UNAS

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Pardon my spelling or grammar but its 1:30

PNym

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Where did I state that going to Harvard was sufficient to allow one to practice surgery?

Like I said, put down the LSAT books and think.

Well, why don't you point it out? I think you're bluffing.

H4CS

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Well, why don't you point it out? I think you're bluffing.

And I think you shouldn't have taken it to heart when your mother told you that you were special.

PNym

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You know what, the human brain never ceases to amaze me. Here we have an Asian chap who writes quite eloquently, but can not seem to comprehend the rationale behind AA. As an Asian-American wouldn't your energy be better committed to issues related to consistently out-performing all other races academically, yet the boardrooms, chief executives and high positioned goverment officials are incongrous to the academic accolades you all have made as a race of people.

I guess that is neither here nor there. Consider that you are asking us refute a book full of anecdotal evidence and self loathing. As a African-American I can assure you that one thing we are experts at identifying is self loathing Negroes. Hell, 500 years of torment and oppression yields such occurences no matter the modern cultural contras randomly coming about by black nationalism to reverse such damage.

By the way your gems about slavery contain some distortions. Sub-Saharan Africa implies quite a large region. This was not the case. Most slaves decended from not just West Africa, but morethe region surrounding the Congo. Secondly, it is common knowledge the African slavery was generally thought of us indentured servitude, not the systemic corroding of a person's self image, identity and culture/history (e.g.cutting off genitalia, amputation, theft, educating us to be inferior...etc). I could go on, but you get the idea. It is disturbing to know that a person of color seems to be completely oblivious to the systemic discrimination in place that prevents the very individual promoting a color blind standardized merit based system. @#!* anecdotal, lets go with empirical. The vault 100 partners are clearly visible on their respective firm's website; you tell me how many Asian partners you see. Maybe then you will realize that AA is not only appropriate, but the country lacks more social doorstops than you originally thougt.

Please explain how my being Asian somehow invalidates my arguments that AA policies will result in deleterious consequences for the favored classes.

Everything you wrote above is largely incongruous to addressing that argument.

Wouldn't addressing the argument do more to address the argument than making patronizing remarks about the person making the argument? Or does your dismissive patronization betray a lack of ability to address the arguments, therefore you hope that said patronization will distract observers from your ability to perform?

Have you read Sowell's book? How do you know it's full of self-loathing? Do you have some kind of mystical mind-reading ability? Or are you arbitrarily defining people holding contrary positions as self-loathing in order to call doubt upon their arguments without addressing the facts or validity of said arguments?

I could define you as a Shining-Path Commie, but I haven't. At least in this post, I'm making an effort to substantially respond to what you've written.

And...

How does calling Sub-Saharan Africa "Sub-Saharan Africa" in any way imply that it's a large region? That's what the region's always been called.

Furthermore, I had brought up the prevalence of the slave trade in Africa to show that its primary perpetrators were black Africans. I'm not sure how your characterization of African's attitudes towards the slave trade as an exercise in indentured servitude challenges the truth of that fact. And I sincerely doubt that even if African slavery were similar to indentured servitude (something that I don't know enough about to contest), I doubt that the indentured servants would be allowed to maintain their old cultures upon release from their temporary servitude.

FWIW, the Arabs were the ones who took black women as concubines and black men as eunuchs. Compared to what the Arabs were doing to their slaves, the Europeans were pretty tame (although that doesn't morally justify slavery).

And...

The lack of Asian partners at vault-100 firms doesn't suggest that systemic discrimination is at play. Other factors may have played a role.

Growing up in Silicon Valley in a largely Asian area, I can attest that most Asians studied engineering or the natural sciences. Most of these students went on to work as engineers, businesspeople, doctors, dentists, or researchers. The lack of prominent lawyers isn't indicative of systemic discrimination if Asians have historically prioritized admittance into other professions.

My pre-law advisor mentioned that it has only been within the last 5-8 years that Asians have applied to law schools in more than minute numbers. If her testimony on this matter can be applied to most undergraduate institutions, then the lack of Asians amongst vault-100 partners can also be explained by the lack of Asian lawyers experienced enough to make partner in these firms.

I don't doubt that some doors are blocked for some people, but seeing that it's impossible to actually gauge how much discrimination exists, it's impossible to tailor a standardized program that would address discrimination in all its possible individual cases, and AA causes more problems than it solves (possibly even causing more discrimination as a backlash against favored groups receiving privileged treatment due to unequal standards), AA doesn't strike me as a very wise policy.

PNym

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Ok, I'll nudge you closer.  This one is a freebie.

Assuming (yes, I'm making an assumption here) that today's standards were in place when surgeon in question went through the process, he would have had to:

1) get into Harvard.  Even assuming he was an AA admit, he was at least the cream of that crop.
2) make it through two years of classes
3) get a very high score on the USMLE (iirc, the lowest quintile for surgeons is still above the average for all medical students.  I can look this up another time if it matters).
4) get stellar recommendations from rotations in the 3rd and 4th years from doctors in programs NOT directly affiliated with Harvard.
5) Finish the rest of the licensing process.
6) Get accepted to a surgery residency somewhere
7) Make it through the several years of the residency (again NOT under a Policy that some author HEARD Harvard had.)

Given this, what assumptions would you have to make to maintain your previous claims?  This is your first homework assignment.


There we go! Now we're getting somewhere.

You make a good counter-argument, one that I wouldn't have thought of (which is why I wanted you to explicitly state your objection in the first place). I admit that I don't nearly have enough facts for the originally supplied anecdote to serve as air-tight evidence that the doctor in question is underqualified. I was going on someone else's recollection of an event that occurred before I was born, and assessment of the doctor in question as unqualified. In fairness, this isn't the best type of evidence to use in concluding anything.

Still, the evaluations you had specified in 1) -> 7) could all have been influenced by AA; that is, poor performance could have been glossed over in favor of promoting the doctor in congruence with the aims of AA. And the person providing the assessment had reached his conclusion that AA had compromised the evaluation process for this doctor based on his entree to the administrators and faculty at HMS. If you believe his assessment is credible, then the argument holds; if not, then it doesn't.

Regardless, the presence of AA allows other people to think that the doctor's screwup was a result HMS's AA policies permitting the graduation of underqualified doctors, and any AA that would be taken into consideration in subsequent evaluatory steps, even if the doctor's screwup was a genuine mistake. This draws doubts upon the qualifications of anyone favored by AA, regardless of their actual level of competency.

If AA had never been implemented as a policy, other people wouldn't have any reasons to think this, saving the competency of the competent doctors in the would-be favored-class from being questioned due to the screwup of someone else in the would-be favored-class.

Further,

As I said earlier, I wish I could magically conjure a list of successful malpractice claims against all Harvard doctors.  Your second homework assignment:  Why did I say that?

I'm not sure. Can you explain? FWIW, I'm not sure Sowell mentioned that someone had filed a malpractice claim in this case, or if they did, the claim was successfully litigated.

UNAS

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You know what, the human brain never ceases to amaze me. Here we have an Asian chap who writes quite eloquently, but can not seem to comprehend the rationale behind AA. As an Asian-American wouldn't your energy be better committed to issues related to consistently out-performing all other races academically, yet the boardrooms, chief executives and high positioned goverment officials are incongrous to the academic accolades you all have made as a race of people.

I guess that is neither here nor there. Consider that you are asking us refute a book full of anecdotal evidence and self loathing. As a African-American I can assure you that one thing we are experts at identifying is self loathing Negroes. Hell, 500 years of torment and oppression yields such occurences no matter the modern cultural contras randomly coming about by black nationalism to reverse such damage.

By the way your gems about slavery contain some distortions. Sub-Saharan Africa implies quite a large region. This was not the case. Most slaves decended from not just West Africa, but morethe region surrounding the Congo. Secondly, it is common knowledge the African slavery was generally thought of us indentured servitude, not the systemic corroding of a person's self image, identity and culture/history (e.g.cutting off genitalia, amputation, theft, educating us to be inferior...etc). I could go on, but you get the idea. It is disturbing to know that a person of color seems to be completely oblivious to the systemic discrimination in place that prevents the very individual promoting a color blind standardized merit based system. @#!* anecdotal, lets go with empirical. The vault 100 partners are clearly visible on their respective firm's website; you tell me how many Asian partners you see. Maybe then you will realize that AA is not only appropriate, but the country lacks more social doorstops than you originally thougt.

Please explain how my being Asian somehow invalidates my arguments that AA policies will result in deleterious consequences for the favored classes.

Everything you wrote above is largely incongruous to addressing that argument.

Wouldn't addressing the argument do more to address the argument than making patronizing remarks about the person making the argument? Or does your dismissive patronization betray a lack of ability to address the arguments, therefore you hope that said patronization will distract observers from your ability to perform?

Have you read Sowell's book? How do you know it's full of self-loathing? Do you have some kind of mystical mind-reading ability? Or are you arbitrarily defining people holding contrary positions as self-loathing in order to call doubt upon their arguments without addressing the facts or validity of said arguments?

I could define you as a Shining-Path Commie, but I haven't. At least in this post, I'm making an effort to substantially respond to what you've written.

And...

How does calling Sub-Saharan Africa "Sub-Saharan Africa" in any way imply that it's a large region? That's what the region's always been called.

Furthermore, I had brought up the prevalence of the slave trade in Africa to show that its primary perpetrators were black Africans. I'm not sure how your characterization of African's attitudes towards the slave trade as an exercise in indentured servitude challenges the truth of that fact. And I sincerely doubt that even if African slavery were similar to indentured servitude (something that I don't know enough about to contest), I doubt that the indentured servants would be allowed to maintain their old cultures upon release from their temporary servitude.

FWIW, the Arabs were the ones who took black women as concubines and black men as eunuchs. Compared to what the Arabs were doing to their slaves, the Europeans were pretty tame (although that doesn't morally justify slavery).

And...

The lack of Asian partners at vault-100 firms doesn't suggest that systemic discrimination is at play. Other factors may have played a role.

Growing up in Silicon Valley in a largely Asian area, I can attest that most Asians studied engineering or the natural sciences. Most of these students went on to work as engineers, businesspeople, doctors, dentists, or researchers. The lack of prominent lawyers isn't indicative of systemic discrimination if Asians have historically prioritized admittance into other professions.

My pre-law advisor mentioned that it has only been within the last 5-8 years that Asians have applied to law schools in more than minute numbers. If her testimony on this matter can be applied to most undergraduate institutions, then the lack of Asians amongst vault-100 partners can also be explained by the lack of Asian lawyers experienced enough to make partner in these firms.

I don't doubt that some doors are blocked for some people, but seeing that it's impossible to actually gauge how much discrimination exists, it's impossible to tailor a standardized program that would address discrimination in all its possible individual cases, and AA causes more problems than it solves (possibly even causing more discrimination as a backlash against favored groups receiving privileged treatment due to unequal standards), AA doesn't strike me as a very wise policy.

I love it. I love it.

You being Asian doesn’t invalidate your arguments and furthermore to suggest that AA will have “deleterious” consequences is a gratuitous use of the English language. Even in the most extreme circumstance I would submit to you AA would have negligible adverse consequences at best. Many of the consequences you have outlined in your previous post would exist with or without AA. Discrediting Black folks because of AA, would merely turn into discrediting Blacks due to neighborhood they grew up in, maybe even undergraduate institution, clothes we wear, hairstyle or some other BS.

No I have not read Sowell’s book COMPLETELY, but I am familiar enough with it to make educated commentary. When it comes to mystical ability I would define it more so as intuition with a very low coefficient of error as it relates to detecting self loathing Blacks.

Incidentally, I have a more socialist lean.

Sub Saharan Africa by definition is the area below the Sahara. That’s roughly ¾ of Africa.

I brought up the slave trade because you brought up the slave trade. I don’t think you were trying to trivialize it, but there seem to consequences stemming from the slave trade that for one reason or another you can’t link to Blacks folks here and now despite them being conspicuous to most Black folks. That’s gap you will have to bridge on your own.

I will accept your accept your premise for lack of Asian partners, but I will assure you that 5-10 years from now there will still be a disproportionately small number of Asian partners. You mentioned business men, doctors and engineers; maybe its me but I haven’t seen even the slightest prevalence of Asian chief executives in the Fortune 1000. Are you familiar with what some people call a “glass ceiling”. There is no shortage of smaller businesses and engineering firms headed by Asians I am certain, but again you seem to be wearing blinders.

“I don't doubt that some doors are blocked for some people, but seeing that it's impossible to actually gauge how much discrimination exists, it's impossible to tailor a standardized program that would address discrimination in all its possible individual cases, and AA causes more problems than it solves (possibly even causing more discrimination as a backlash against favored groups receiving privileged treatment due to unequal standards), AA doesn't strike me as a very wise policy.”

I love it. The mere fact that you made this comment demonstrates the need for AA.  If it is impossible to gauge exactly how much discrimination exists yet everyone is cognizant of its pervasiveness it would be foolish to abolish a program that combats it. The fact it is not iron clad does not invalidate it. AA came about to reverse instances where less qualified Whites were being selected over more qualified Blacks, Indians…etc.  I think  it is quite convenient you haven’t brought that up. Ergo the “quota”.

dashrashi

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Regardless, the presence of AA allows other people to think that the doctor's screwup was a result HMS's AA policies permitting the graduation of underqualified doctors, and any AA that would be taken into consideration in subsequent evaluatory steps, even if the doctor's screwup was a genuine mistake. This draws doubts upon the qualifications of anyone favored by AA, regardless of their actual level of competency.

If AA had never been implemented as a policy, other people wouldn't have any reasons to think this, saving the competency of the competent doctors in the would-be favored-class from being questioned due to the screwup of someone else in the would-be favored-class.

People are only likely to think that if they're racist anyway. Otherwise, they're liable to chalk it up to people f-ing up, as do many, many, many white doctors, which I'm thinking was a reason Piggy would like to see that list of successful malpractice claims. If black doctors aren't f-ing up proportionately more than white doctors are, then there's no reason to say that AA has relaxed admission standards, because presumably the white doctors who screwed up were admitted under the more "rigorous" admission standards.

Sorry for spoiling the second homework assignment, P. I had doubts about whether s/he was gonna get it anyway, though.
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