Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
;

Author Topic: Why should I vote for Kerry?  (Read 3331 times)

Bisquick

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1692
    • View Profile
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2004, 02:14:28 PM »
So far yes.  There could be other points I agree with on here if Kerry or someone gave me "why's" and more importantly "how's".

Anyone know how Kerry plans to cure Iraq and win the war on terror?  (I actually do give credit in Iraq to him not being Bush.  I believe other countries may join up if for no other reason than thumbing their nose at Bush.)  On terrorism, I don't think who is in office will have much effect.  Terrorists would be more likely to attack us under Bush out of hatred and likely to attack us under Kerry to test his will, so I think that is a wash.  However, he might have some fresh insight on exactly how to find Osama and win the war.  Any suggestions here?
3.8/155

dr_draino

  • Guest
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2004, 02:37:19 PM »
So let's recap the reasons for Biscuit to vote for Kerry so far:

He's not Bush
He'd be more multi-lateral and internationalist
In the past he's known to stand for unpopular causes he believed in
John McCain likes him

Does that about sum up the reasons you'd be inclined to vote for Kerry, Biscuit?

ZAP


I think a more accurate way of listing that would be:
he's not Bush
He'd be more multi-lateral and internationalist
In the past he's known to stand for unpopular causes he believed in
John McCain likes him

By simplifying "he's not Bush" to one line you ignore the myriad reasons for this.

A few more points FOR Kerry's favor:

1)  His plan for social security might not be realistic in the long-term, but it is at least a feasible plan in the short term.  I can't believe Bush is pulling out this "privatization" BS again this campaign.  Why didn't it happen last time?  B/C when he put together some smart people to look into it they immediately realized they'd need to find a billion dollar check somewhere to make it happen.

2)  biscuit, I know you want documentable evidence, but I can't give you any on this argument but here goes:  Bush actually kinda scares me with regard to "the war on terror" because to me he's too busy trying to show "strength and resolve" and has never been willing to admit "none of us fully knows what the @#!* to do here cause this is all new".  While I don't want my President to stand up on national TV and say "I just want you to know, that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but we'll figure something out", I DO want my President, in his own mind, to think that AND to know that when he thinks that his next immediate thought is going to be "well, we're all scratching our heads a little, but we've got a lot of smart people in Washington, lets use ALL of our resources to figure this thing out".  I don't think Bush will ever implement any recomendations by the 9/11 comission and if he does, it will not be because they are in that report but because they came as a rec. from within his own cabinet.  For several reasons I think John Kerry is more willing to seek any and every available resource to solve a problem (his 'flip-flopping' shows me he's thoughtful, willing to admit mistakes, and willing to recognize when he doesn't fully understand a situation; his work in the Senate shows that he's willing to work with anyone that can give him assistance on solving a problem etc.)

I had more to say, but I must get some work done...maybe I'll post some more later.


The ZAPINATOR

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6380
    • MSN Messenger - N/A
    • AOL Instant Messenger - N/A
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - N/A
    • View Profile
    • N/A
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2004, 03:02:55 PM »
The caricature of Bush is that he never doubts himself and thus never admits a mistake.  I don't know if that's entirely accurate.  But I'll grant you that it is the caricature. 

ZAP

So let's recap the reasons for Biscuit to vote for Kerry so far:

He's not Bush
He'd be more multi-lateral and internationalist
In the past he's known to stand for unpopular causes he believed in
John McCain likes him

Does that about sum up the reasons you'd be inclined to vote for Kerry, Biscuit?

ZAP


I think a more accurate way of listing that would be:
he's not Bush
He'd be more multi-lateral and internationalist
In the past he's known to stand for unpopular causes he believed in
John McCain likes him

By simplifying "he's not Bush" to one line you ignore the myriad reasons for this.

A few more points FOR Kerry's favor:

1)  His plan for social security might not be realistic in the long-term, but it is at least a feasible plan in the short term.  I can't believe Bush is pulling out this "privatization" BS again this campaign.  Why didn't it happen last time?  B/C when he put together some smart people to look into it they immediately realized they'd need to find a billion dollar check somewhere to make it happen.

2)  biscuit, I know you want documentable evidence, but I can't give you any on this argument but here goes:  Bush actually kinda scares me with regard to "the war on terror" because to me he's too busy trying to show "strength and resolve" and has never been willing to admit "none of us fully knows what the @#!* to do here cause this is all new".  While I don't want my President to stand up on national TV and say "I just want you to know, that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but we'll figure something out", I DO want my President, in his own mind, to think that AND to know that when he thinks that his next immediate thought is going to be "well, we're all scratching our heads a little, but we've got a lot of smart people in Washington, lets use ALL of our resources to figure this thing out".  I don't think Bush will ever implement any recomendations by the 9/11 comission and if he does, it will not be because they are in that report but because they came as a rec. from within his own cabinet.  For several reasons I think John Kerry is more willing to seek any and every available resource to solve a problem (his 'flip-flopping' shows me he's thoughtful, willing to admit mistakes, and willing to recognize when he doesn't fully understand a situation; his work in the Senate shows that he's willing to work with anyone that can give him assistance on solving a problem etc.)

I had more to say, but I must get some work done...maybe I'll post some more later.



dr_draino

  • Guest
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2004, 03:08:27 PM »
I'm not talking caricature, I'm talking documentable evidence:  See his idea for an intelligence czar.  He's simply not willing to look outside his own inner-circle for help on any issue.

The caricature of Bush is that he never doubts himself and thus never admits a mistake.  I don't know if that's entirely accurate.  But I'll grant you that it is the caricature. 

ZAP

So let's recap the reasons for Biscuit to vote for Kerry so far:

He's not Bush
He'd be more multi-lateral and internationalist
In the past he's known to stand for unpopular causes he believed in
John McCain likes him

Does that about sum up the reasons you'd be inclined to vote for Kerry, Biscuit?

ZAP


I think a more accurate way of listing that would be:
he's not Bush
He'd be more multi-lateral and internationalist
In the past he's known to stand for unpopular causes he believed in
John McCain likes him

By simplifying "he's not Bush" to one line you ignore the myriad reasons for this.

A few more points FOR Kerry's favor:

1)  His plan for social security might not be realistic in the long-term, but it is at least a feasible plan in the short term.  I can't believe Bush is pulling out this "privatization" BS again this campaign.  Why didn't it happen last time?  B/C when he put together some smart people to look into it they immediately realized they'd need to find a billion dollar check somewhere to make it happen.

2)  biscuit, I know you want documentable evidence, but I can't give you any on this argument but here goes:  Bush actually kinda scares me with regard to "the war on terror" because to me he's too busy trying to show "strength and resolve" and has never been willing to admit "none of us fully knows what the @#!* to do here cause this is all new".  While I don't want my President to stand up on national TV and say "I just want you to know, that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but we'll figure something out", I DO want my President, in his own mind, to think that AND to know that when he thinks that his next immediate thought is going to be "well, we're all scratching our heads a little, but we've got a lot of smart people in Washington, lets use ALL of our resources to figure this thing out".  I don't think Bush will ever implement any recomendations by the 9/11 comission and if he does, it will not be because they are in that report but because they came as a rec. from within his own cabinet.  For several reasons I think John Kerry is more willing to seek any and every available resource to solve a problem (his 'flip-flopping' shows me he's thoughtful, willing to admit mistakes, and willing to recognize when he doesn't fully understand a situation; his work in the Senate shows that he's willing to work with anyone that can give him assistance on solving a problem etc.)

I had more to say, but I must get some work done...maybe I'll post some more later.



The ZAPINATOR

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6380
    • MSN Messenger - N/A
    • AOL Instant Messenger - N/A
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - N/A
    • View Profile
    • N/A
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2004, 03:12:50 PM »
If you're president, chances are you don't.  That's why you have an inner circle you feel you can trust: everybody wants a piece of you.  I have a feeling he'll implement all 9/11 commission findings that make sense to him.  This is not something to expect him to have already done 3 months or less after the report was released, especially in the middle of an election cycle.

ZAP

dr_draino

  • Guest
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2004, 03:19:58 PM »
I don't care who you are, you don't turn down advice from smart people, whether they're your smart people or somebody elses smart people.  President's should head informed advice from anywhere and everywhere.  There are many times when your cabinet will not be the most informed group of people on a topic, in those times be willing to reach out to others.

Up until the day before 9/11 Condi Rice was still spouting off about nation-states being the biggest threat to our security.  We are then hit hard by a complete non-state entity and enter a war with nothing that resembles a nation-state.  This tells me you better be looking for advice from people other than just Dr. Rice...not that you should discount her, but this is all new, times when you confront something new are the times when you need to open your circle to advice the most.  Bush has done just the opposite. 

Kerry has shown his ability to reach out to whoever can offer him help in acheiving his goals in the senate and I believe he'll do the same as president and that you should vote for him.



If you're president, chances are you don't.  That's why you have an inner circle you feel you can trust: everybody wants a piece of you.  I have a feeling he'll implement all 9/11 commission findings that make sense to him.  This is not something to expect him to have already done 3 months or less after the report was released, especially in the middle of an election cycle.

ZAP

The ZAPINATOR

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6380
    • MSN Messenger - N/A
    • AOL Instant Messenger - N/A
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - N/A
    • View Profile
    • N/A
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2004, 03:32:34 PM »
Kerry's just a really weak candidate to me though.  If it was Edwards I'd find myself a lot more inclined to vote Democrat.  But for me, not Bush is not enough.  Especially since you and I disagree about Bush on several different points, and I'm generally sympathetic to him (though he's not the ideal candidate in my mind).

Like I said, I do think he'll take everything the 9/11 commission said and act on it where he thinks it will help our national security situation.  I don't think he's had time yet to be expected to do that.  After all, what if Kerry wins?  Everything he did would probably be dismantled in that case, so it would be irrelevant.

I agree that the president should take good advice no matter where it comes from.  But advice that you may consider good someone else may not.  While I don't think Bush is opposed to outside guidance, I do think he has inward guideposts that keep him generally pointed in the direction he thinks things ought to be going.  Now, to some that's a weakness in Bush, like to you.  To me, it's a strength.  A strength Kerry doesn't have.  It all depends on perspective.

ZAP

I don't care who you are, you don't turn down advice from smart people, whether they're your smart people or somebody elses smart people.  President's should head informed advice from anywhere and everywhere.  There are many times when your cabinet will not be the most informed group of people on a topic, in those times be willing to reach out to others.

Up until the day before 9/11 Condi Rice was still spouting off about nation-states being the biggest threat to our security.  We are then hit hard by a complete non-state entity and enter a war with nothing that resembles a nation-state.  This tells me you better be looking for advice from people other than just Dr. Rice...not that you should discount her, but this is all new, times when you confront something new are the times when you need to open your circle to advice the most.  Bush has done just the opposite. 

Kerry has shown his ability to reach out to whoever can offer him help in acheiving his goals in the senate and I believe he'll do the same as president and that you should vote for him.



If you're president, chances are you don't.  That's why you have an inner circle you feel you can trust: everybody wants a piece of you.  I have a feeling he'll implement all 9/11 commission findings that make sense to him.  This is not something to expect him to have already done 3 months or less after the report was released, especially in the middle of an election cycle.

ZAP

M2

  • Guest
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2004, 04:42:56 PM »
When you say Kerry is a weak candidate do you mean you dont think he will do a good job or that he wont get elected?

The ZAPINATOR

  • LSD Obsessed
  • *****
  • Posts: 6380
    • MSN Messenger - N/A
    • AOL Instant Messenger - N/A
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - N/A
    • View Profile
    • N/A
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2004, 04:50:55 PM »
I don't think he'll get elected in the first place, so I don't think we'll ever know exactly what kind of president he would have been.

But he has a little bit of trouble formulating a message that people can really hold onto and understand.  When people think Kerry, they think Vietnam.  That's been a huge tactical error on his part... when they think Kerry they should think healthcare, or economy, or gun control, or whatever.  The thing is he hasn't defined himself well in terms of issues, and no one's really sure (other than the abstract promises and plans that all politicians spout) what he stands for.

For me, that's an indication that he wouldn't be a very good president either... if he's a weak candidate, he'd probably not be a much stronger president once pressure was on his chest to actually perform.  Could be wrong about that... but I disagree with many of his issues anyway so that's a moot point.  The reasons I don't want him for president are probably the same reasons others DO.

ZAP

When you say Kerry is a weak candidate do you mean you dont think he will do a good job or that he wont get elected?

Bisquick

  • Sr. Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1692
    • View Profile
Re: Why should I vote for Kerry?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2004, 05:26:29 PM »
There is a huge problem with this.  Generally there are smart people on both sides of EVERY issue.  Listening to both sides is critical.  Implementing both is normally impossible.  That is where leadership comes into play.

I don't care who you are, you don't turn down advice from smart people, whether they're your smart people or somebody elses smart people.  President's should head informed advice from anywhere and everywhere.  There are many times when your cabinet will not be the most informed group of people on a topic, in those times be willing to reach out to others.

Up until the day before 9/11 Condi Rice was still spouting off about nation-states being the biggest threat to our security.  We are then hit hard by a complete non-state entity and enter a war with nothing that resembles a nation-state.  This tells me you better be looking for advice from people other than just Dr. Rice...not that you should discount her, but this is all new, times when you confront something new are the times when you need to open your circle to advice the most.  Bush has done just the opposite. 

Kerry has shown his ability to reach out to whoever can offer him help in acheiving his goals in the senate and I believe he'll do the same as president and that you should vote for him.



If you're president, chances are you don't.  That's why you have an inner circle you feel you can trust: everybody wants a piece of you.  I have a feeling he'll implement all 9/11 commission findings that make sense to him.  This is not something to expect him to have already done 3 months or less after the report was released, especially in the middle of an election cycle.

ZAP
3.8/155