Is Tier 3 and 4 a waste of money??

[Sweetpri]

Hell, i think that if i dont get in a T14 i won't get a decent job. 

You've got to be pretty damn useless then But seriously, sounds like you don't have much experience from the work life, straight-through college guy?

Just speaking from my limited experience (yes i'm straight out of college guy). Personally, i'm gonna work as a manager in a retail store. After about two years i can get promoted to a district manager, and they make 60K a year. That's probably more than many T3/4 schools have to offer. And that's without wasting 3 years, about anywhere from 30-100 K. Dont get me wrong, i'm sure there are lots of happy attorneys that graduate from those schools, but i personally wouldn't risk getting into debt for something like that. I think there are other opportunities that are less risky. But hey, if there are successful T4 lawyers- so much the better for us who will probably go to T1 school.

I might agree that someone who is straight out of college should not go to a T3/T4 school right away, but that's not my situation.  I have 4 years experience in a field which is related to the type of law I want to practice - so what I really want to know is how much this would help in finding a job even if I go to a Tier 3/4...I would like to think I could beat out a Tier 2 person with no experience if we were both being considered for the same job, but I'm not sure...

[«ě»]

With the same academic record you might, at least if those years of experience is relevant. If you've been working as a store clerk at a supermarket, it won't

As long as you're not looking to get straight into Wachtell, Skadden, Cravath et.al. I'm sure you'd do fine.

[Sweetpri]

No to both of those!  Thank Keno!

[pinkytrc]

Hell, i think that if i dont get in a T14 i won't get a decent job. 

You've got to be pretty damn useless then But seriously, sounds like you don't have much experience from the work life, straight-through college guy?

Just speaking from my limited experience (yes i'm straight out of college guy). Personally, i'm gonna work as a manager in a retail store. After about two years i can get promoted to a district manager, and they make 60K a year. That's probably more than many T3/4 schools have to offer. And that's without wasting 3 years, about anywhere from 30-100 K. Dont get me wrong, i'm sure there are lots of happy attorneys that graduate from those schools, but i personally wouldn't risk getting into debt for something like that. I think there are other opportunities that are less risky. But hey, if there are successful T4 lawyers- so much the better for us who will probably go to T1 school.

This is just plain goofy.  First, maybe someone simply wants to become an attorney?  I honestly did not grow up playing dress up saying I want to be a district manager, no offense, but you overlooked that maybe someone simply wants to practice law.  Second, have you even once looked at median salaries for graduates from these schools?  CSU is nearly 70k and it's just not that expensive.  Personally, I am kind of offended because my boyfriends mother is a judge and she went to a t3.  She's making a bit more than 60k!  One thing I've noticed on LSD, many people score highly and that is wonderful, and they are nice and not demeaning or stuck-up and don't treat people like dirt.  Then there are the others...

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that because I didn't go to a t14 that I am less of a person.

[ptown]

Sure you can get a well paying job right out of undergrad, and move up.  But the likelyhood of you ever making 6 figures is very very small.  By getting a JD, you increase those chances significantly, whether or not you practice.

There are a lot of people walking around out there with bachelors degrees, and iirc from statistics I have read the average salary for a BA is ~55k.  That is including people that are right out of school through retirement.  

Oh, and the retail manager plan is totally ridiculous.  If you have a degree, please do not work in retail.  The work is not fulfilling in any way, and you can pretty much get canned at any time.  I worked in big retail through my last 2 yrs of college, and I saw a new GM on average of every 4 months......The other thing you have to consider is growth potential, even if you are stable at a DM position at 60k and 25 yrs old, what the hell are you going to be doing when you are 30, 35, 40, 60?  The chances that you are going to become the CEO of the corporation is slim, and the chances that the DM salary constraints are going to exceed 100k are none.  Taking a job like this cause you really like it is one thing, and I am sure such a person exists, but to do it for the money is naive and ridiculous.

[pinkytrc]

Haha, that was pretty good!  I just think it's ridiculous that some people think that you can't make money outside the t14!  I mean, seriously, how many people do those schools graduate compared to how many attorneys practice?  And Judges, etc.  And I honestly doubt that the t14 grads could fill up every big law firm, I might even doubt all t1 or t2 could do so!  (Just opinion, don't come at me with statistics!  It's retorical people.)  So believe me, I see it everyday, I work at a law firm and people who go to other schools can make a good living!  The courthouse is across the street from me right now and at least 4 of 5 graduated from a t3.  So did our representative to the House. It is possible.

[«ě»]

Sure you can get a well paying job right out of undergrad, and move up.  But the likelyhood of you ever making 6 figures is very very small.  By getting a JD, you increase those chances significantly, whether or not you practice.

The chances of making 6 figures with a UG is actually pretty good, if you're willing to work for it. Hell, I made more than that with just a high school grad. Point is, people seem to equal UG to mean a 40 hour / week cubicle job, which might very often be true. But that doesn't say its impossible to make something great out of it. If you do a good UG and put in as much work as you would at a BigLaw firm, 80h+ a week and really going for advancements, you can reach the top regardless.

[ptown]

Sure you can get a well paying job right out of undergrad, and move up.  But the likelyhood of you ever making 6 figures is very very small.  By getting a JD, you increase those chances significantly, whether or not you practice.

The chances of making 6 figures with a UG is actually pretty good, if you're willing to work for it. Hell, I made more than that with just a high school grad. Point is, people seem to equal UG to mean a 40 hour / week cubicle job, which might very often be true. But that doesn't say its impossible to make something great out of it. If you do a good UG and put in as much work as you would at a BigLaw firm, 80h+ a week and really going for advancements, you can reach the top regardless.

I have to disagree that the chances are pretty good (not to say that it can't and doesn't happen).....by chances I mean statistically that there are a lot of people that actually did it.  I know dozens and dozens of people with bachelors degrees, but none make over 100k.  In contrast, I do not personally know any attorneys that make less than 100k.  This is my personal experience.

If the chance were good that a BA could make 100k, then I would expect the average US income to be much much higher.  THere are a lot of bachelors degrees out there, and if the chance were good, then there would be a fair percentage of them.  Let me just peg that at say, 20% (I wouln't say that 20% is a good percentage).  I would be very surprised if 20% of all persons holding a bachelors degree made over 100k.

The exceptions would be mainly entrepreneurs.  If you made 100k out of high school, and wern't a business owner, I would like to know what you did.  (There is skilled labor work that one can make close to 100k or more when working serious OT, but generally this type of employment is not avaliable to a college graduate since you need years to aquire the skills and/or licenses necessary)

[«ě»]

There's many sides to this scenario, and I suppose neither one of us is an expert, I am at least not. Even if "just 20%" of the people holding a bachelors make over 100k, those 20% by far outnumber 100% of the JDs (logically). Another side to this is that not all people, probably far from it, has a motivation to realize their career potential as much as they can. A majority of people would probably chose to work 40 hours a week for $60k rather than 80 hours for $120k, but this factor is largely not present in the legal profession, because the demand doesn't allow you to take the "casual" option. There's probably a million other factors involved that I cant think of. It was not my intention to say that getting a bachelors will automatically make you rich and successful, but in my eyes what you do with your education is the most important thing, life after graduation is long.

And yes, I started my own firm, and it took a while before I made a profit, not saying dropping out after high school is a sound career advice Just saying things are possible if you have the drive and at least a minimum of qualifications... or just *&^% load of luck of course, that always works too.

[ptown]

Another side to this is that not all people, probably far from it, has a motivation to realize their career potential as much as they can. A majority of people would probably chose to work 40 hours a week for $60k rather than 80 hours for $120k, but this factor is largely not present in the legal profession, because the demand doesn't allow you to take the "casual" option.

I know this is the prevailing idea here, that all attorneys (that make any kind of money) work constantly and have no life.  It just does not mesh with my experience.  Out of all the attorneys I have known personally in my life, I can't remember any that were so busy that they didn't have a lot of free time.  Of course, my sample could be skewed because 1) the people I know could have more focus on their family 2) I have never lived in a large city.  That said, they were also not poor.

There's many sides to this scenario, and I suppose neither one of us is an expert, I am at least not. Even if "just 20%" of the people holding a bachelors make over 100k, those 20% by far outnumber 100% of the JDs (logically).

That is true, but it doesn't address the issue of the "chances" being much higher for a JD to me making that sort of money.  Relating the number of the total population is worthless since we are only talking about percentages.  If 20% of BA's make 100k+, and 50% of JDs do, then the JD has given you a much better chance. 

I am not an expert, but I have a BA and know how hard it would be to get to a point that I had a 100k salary.  If it were easy, more people would be doing it.  Since I know none, I have to assume that it is exceedingly improbable.