French hostages

[Freak]

So did France really make the right decision in not helping us in Iraq?  I see how thankful the Islamic Army is.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20040830/wl_nm/iraq_france_headscarf_dc

[The ZAPINATOR]

The French are internationalists.  America in general has a different philosophy.  I don't hate the French like some do (although I think it's funny when people crack light-hearted jokes about them, not when it's meanness in disguise).  However, I am firm in the belief that Jacques Chirac and Gerhardt Schroeder shouldn't be trying to use the UN to tie America's hands because they're internationalist and don't want to upset a delicate international balance.  To the extent that this happens, I think we're justified in going around the UN.  Not that it should be the first thing we do, but it should always be an option.  And yes, in this case I think the French, Germans and Russians would have been wise to get onboard.  Radical Islam, wherever it lurks, is not a respecter of internationalism.  It just wants its way at all costs, and it will kill all who disagree.

ZAP

[Engilaw]

once again, i fully agree with zap. 

[M2]

Once again...I do not

Viva La France!

[Bisquick]

Anyone else think the French policy against religious symbols worn by students is stupid and wrong?

Freedom of/from Religion does not equate to wiping out peoples personal religion.  If a student was forcing other students to read a Christian or Islamic prayer every day, that would be wrong.  Wearing a symbol of ones own religious beliefs (in the case of head scarfs its not even really a symbol but an actual part of the belief) is not forcing religion on anyone.

[The ZAPINATOR]

Agreed.  That's an egregious violation of personal expression of religious faith.

ZAP

Anyone else think the French policy against religious symbols worn by students is stupid and wrong?

Freedom of/from Religion does not equate to wiping out peoples personal religion.  If a student was forcing other students to read a Christian or Islamic prayer every day, that would be wrong.  Wearing a symbol of ones own religious beliefs (in the case of head scarfs its not even really a symbol but an actual part of the belief) is not forcing religion on anyone.

[londongirl]

In principle, the religious clothing laws are wrong. I taught in a high school in France last year, and some of my students refused to go to school without the  headscarf - I taught them outside.
In practice, it is often a necessary rule. A lot of converting to Islam does go on in France. The political situation there is very complicated. They allowed lots of Muslim Algerians and Moroccans in to help build up the country in the 60s, and housed them in purpose-built accomodation out of town, like in ghettos called 'cite [with an accent on the e that I can't get to show up here]'. Unfortunately the financial/social position of these people has not improved over a generation. There is tremendous violence in these areas, cars and schools are put on fire and burnt, there are stabbings... the French have done a terrible thing by not helping these people integrate into society. On the whole, many Muslims refusing to attend school because of the headscarf restriction come from these areas. It's a political, anti-French, as well as religious statement that these people make, against the French authorities. My experience of France, though I love it, has shown me it is quite a racist country. These kids would suffer attending school with the headscarf. Rightly or wrongly, they'd be associated with the violence. There would be arguments. There already are. I had a hard time controlling a class of kids arguing about Islam and Judaism and getting incredibly offensive. You might answer that brushing the problem under the carpet isn't a solution. In theory, no, in practice it makes working life much more pleasant for teachers and students. They come to the classroom without politics and learn on an equal setting.
Another point to make is that the French claim (whether this is true or not I cannot tell you) that many families force their daughters to wear the headscarf, so they want to create a neutral space for people to learn where they can 'get away', so to speak. Again, how true this is I don't know.
It's far more complicated than I've explained, but I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm Jewish, and take my religion seriously, but I don't think it's necessary for people to show their religion outwardly - it's a personal thing that should not be imposed on others. I don't see why it should be outwardly expressed, not in Judaism where for orthodox people it's supposedly compulsory, or for Muslims for whom, apparently, it's choice.
Some things are better left at home, if only for security reasons.

[The ZAPINATOR]

If it's causing a huge disruption, I can buy that banning that stuff may make it easier.  I think the key, though, would be to teach people not to hate, and to use religion to teach love.  To the extent that religion is teaching hate in the place of love, or competition between religions, I don't think religion has any place.  Not only not in school... hateful religion has no place anywhere.  You may be right about that much.  I'll defer to your opinion on this since you've personally encountered these issues in France.

I still think it infringes on personal religious expression, and I think that in an ideal situation where religion was a fount of love and not hate, it is NOT best to keep religion at home.  But if that's not the case in France, so be it.

ZAP

[dgatl]

Please pray for the Nepali men that were slaughtered in Iraq as well as their families (that is, if you pray).

[londongirl]

Thanks, ZAP.
Yes, you're right. We must send our thoughts to the Nepalese men and French journalists.
And to the poor families of the 16 Israelis killed in a suicide bombing on two buses at the same time. Over 100 people were wounded.
This stuff depresses me no end. Today is just awful.