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Author Topic: Proposal 2 and UofMich  (Read 28530 times)

redemption

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2006, 11:23:35 AM »
Fair enough, I was trying to give you some wiggle room because I know that you buckle easily under pressure.

Do you believe that the reason for the gap in LSAT scores after UGPA, Major, School have been accounted for exists because URMs have lower IQ?

parsley

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2006, 11:25:36 AM »
Quote
If socio-econ was the cause, these adjustments would cancel out the LSAT score gap.
That's not necessarily true.

Quote
For someone who swore to ignore me  -- "you're dead to me, red!" -- you got over it pretty quickly.
Oh, I still don't like you.  But if I bail on a conversation, it's because I can't stand you anymore not because I've been cut by your wit and am off licking my wounds.

Quote
Do you have a crush on me?
This isn't the third grade.  If I say I don't like you, it's because I don't like you.


Red, I'm curious.  What do you do all day?

bandaidstick

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2006, 11:28:52 AM »
Are you talking about the LSAT score gap that exists between races? gender? region of birth? primary language? Which gap do you reference?



Do you believe that the reason for the gap in LSAT scores after UGPA, Major, School have been accounted for exists because URMs have lower IQ?
[/quote]

redemption

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2006, 11:31:00 AM »
Are you talking about the LSAT score gap that exists between races? gender? region of birth? primary language? Which gap do you reference?

There's a gap by race. -6 for african americans, -4 for latinos, -2 for native americans.

Well?

parsley

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2006, 11:33:38 AM »
To point out the obvious...
Accounting for UGPA, Major and School ONLY accounts for UGPA, Major and School.

Don't make it account for more than it does.


bandaidstick

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2006, 11:39:42 AM »
Well, what? Do I think that this score gap between races can be accounted for by IQ? No, because I think the LSAT is a poor IQ test. I do think it has something to do with a specific sort of intellectual skill, though. Isn't it true that whites fall somewhere behind Indians/Asians? This gap, too, would be because of a lack of that particular skill (once all these other things are taken into account). This is assuming we can isolate and "account for" all of those other factors neatly. I never admitted that we could do that in reality. I don't know.

redemption

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2006, 11:43:34 AM »
Wightman's research found that adding a preference based on socioeconomic factors to the UGPA/LSAT criteria would not significantly increase the number of African-Americans, because among applicants with similar socioeconomic backgrounds, those self-identified as "white" significantly outperformed African-Americans on the LSAT.

Wightman, supra note 96, at 45. Wightman's study also showed that the mean LSAT score for black students was consistently seven to eight points lower than white students of the same socioeconomic class for each of the four socioeconomic classifications (upper, upper-middle, middle, lowermiddle). See id. at 42.

Indeed, the group of black law students classified as upper class-both parents had graduate or professional training and held professional jobs-had a mean LSAT score about six points lower than white law students in the lowest classification, lower-middle-neither parent was college educated and both were engaged in blue collar work. See id. at 41-42.

Wightman's findings have been further corroborated by a recent empirical study by a researcher at Testing for the Public, a nonprofit educational corporation that helps students prepare for graduate school admission examinations. William C. Kidder, Does the LSAT Mirror or Magnify Racial and Ethnic Differences in Educational Attainment? A Study of Equally Achieving "Elite" College Students, 89 CAL. L. Rav. 1055 (2001). Kidder's study used a database of 1996, 1997, and 1998 applicants to Boalt Hall from fifteen highly selective colleges and universities. Id. at 1058. For each undergraduate institution, he matched the LSAT score of each African-American, Latino, Native American, and Asian Pacific applicant with the average LSAT scores of white applicants who had comparable UGPAs. Id. at 1073. Thus, the LSAT score of a minority applicant from UCLA with a UGPA of 3.4 would be compared with the average LSAT score of all white applicants from UCLA with UGPAs ranging from 3.3 to 3.5. Id.

Kidder then calculated the average gap in LSAT score between, for example, all Latino applicants (from all fifteen undergraduate institutions) and white applicants from the same institution with comparable UGPAs. Id. His results showed that the 247 African-American applicants had an average LSAT gap of 9.2 as compared to white applicants with comparable grades at the same college or university. Id. at 1074. The LSAT gap for the 407 Latino applicants was 6.8; for the 33 Native American applicants, 4.0; and for the 1043 Asian Pacific applicants, 2.5. Id. Because the Boalt Hall application database further distinguished among various Asian Pacific nationalities, Kidder was able to determine that some Asian applicant groups had higher LSAT gap scores than the overall average Asian gap: Filipinos, 5.5 and Vietnamese/Thai/Cambodian/Laotian, 5.3. Id. at 1075. Kidder also did a second, even more precise study matching each African-American, Latino, and Asian Pacific applicant with white applicants who had comparable UGPAs and were also taking the same major. Id. at 1079. For example, a Latino applicant from UCLA majoring in political science would be compared only to white political science majors from UCLA with comparable grades. Id. The LSAT gaps did not change appreciably. Id.

redemption

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2006, 11:44:41 AM »
Well, what? Do I think that this score gap between races can be accounted for by IQ? No, because I think the LSAT is a poor IQ test. I do think it has something to do with a specific sort of intellectual skill, though. Isn't it true that whites fall somewhere behind Indians/Asians? This gap, too, would be because of a lack of that particular skill (once all these other things are taken into account). This is assuming we can isolate and "account for" all of those other factors neatly. I never admitted that we could do that in reality. I don't know.

What is that particular intellectual skill?

parsley

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2006, 11:46:37 AM »
States can barely cobble together a meaningful measure of graduation rates.  (And most can't at all.)

I don't think LSAC has developed a magical way of controlling for hundreds of socioeconomic factors by "accounting" for three questionable factors to determine the actual gap by race.

ananse

  • Guest
Re: Proposal 2 and UofMich
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2006, 11:47:34 AM »
 
2) I think that subpar achievement for admissions is better explained by overcoming socioeconomic factors rather than "overcoming" one's race, gender or national origin. 

How so? I think Red's point is that you're making these statements based on nothing more than a gut-feel. How would you know that being black in and of itself does not present challenges to overcome, socio-economic obstacles aside? I speak from a personal perspective, and offer my own case as a counter-example to your premise. So take it for what it's worth.

I am black, grew up in Africa where black is neutral.  Then I came here to attend college, and realized that I was consistently "assumed stupid until proven otherwise." If you think that's nothing to overcome, imagine our courts system operating on a premise of "assumed guilty until proven innocent."  I can fill a book with examples of how this impacted my work -- from TA's who presumed I was incapable of quality work even when they had proof to the contrary in front of them, to classmates who wouldn't partner with me on projects despite my ranking in the top 8th of my class.

Amongst blacks, I don't believe my experiences are unique.  What you're asking adcoms to do is to assume that this bias does not exist. 

Regardless of how well I did in school, I KNOW I would have done better if I had been given the benefit of the doubt.  People assume you're going to fail just because of your skin color and this affects their attitude towards your work; it affects how much effort they are willing to expend to help you understand a concept.  For every class, I had to prove that I was capable just to get the same benefit of the doubt accorded everyone else.  Try dealing with that pressure in addition to school work.