Proposal 2 and UofMich

[Miss P]

Oh ok, so instead of going to Harvard, go to Yale. instead of going to Tier 2 school A, go to Tier 2 School B, etc?

well, I guess I can understand it in the case of moving between T14, but I'm not sure about the rest.

Eh, Duke --> Stanford, Washington & Lee --> GWU, Wake --> Fordham, etc.

[t...]

Judging strictly by numbers for NYU (from LSN last cycle):

There is a 159/3.83, 166/3.87, a 164/3.63, 165/3.14, 165/3.71, 163/3.80, and a few more in that range who were accepted.

Numbers that would suggest schools ranked in the 30's or so (if we were gauging strictly by numbers). I think there are examples of pretty significant bumps, but none of that is my point.

My point is that regardless of why they were bumped, I don't think numbers necessarily suggest qualification, and I don't think a law degree from the t14 is any more difficult to achieve than most other schools in the top 100 (roughly). So I think the point made earlier that URM's are looked at as mercy cases who are unqualified to attend X school is bogus.

Sorry for being redundant.

[Miss P]

Judging strictly by numbers for NYU (from LSN):

There is a 159/3.83, 166/3.87, a 164/3.63, 165/3.14, 165/3.71, 163/3.80, and a few more in that range.

Numbers that would suggest schools ranked in the 30's or so (if we were gauging strictly by numbers). I think there are examples of pretty significant bumps, but none of that is my point.

My point is that regardless of why they were bumped, I don't think numbers necessarily suggest qualification, and I don't think a law degree from the t14 is any more difficult to achieve than most other schools in the top 100 (roughly). So I think the idea that URM's are looked at as mercy cases who are unqualified to attend X school is bogus.

Sorry for being redundant.

I agree.  I strongly doubt there's any difference in the level of preparation for law school between someone who scored a 163 and someone who scored a 173, or that there's enough difference in the curricula/difficulty of same-tier law schools to make admissions really a matter a of "qualifications" anyway.

[ImVinny!]

Would it really be easier to graduate from a T14 than a Tier 3/4 I heard that at the bottom ranked schools it is harder to get good grades and the profs are just trying to kick people out because they are places to sift out the students who don't belong there, or shouldn't be lawyers for whatever reason. is this true?

[Miss P]

Would it really be easier to graduate from a T14 than a Tier 3/4 I heard that at the bottom ranked schools it is harder to get good grades and the profs are just trying to kick people out because they are places to sift out the students who don't belong there, or shouldn't be lawyers for whatever reason. is this true?

I have no way of knowing, but a comparison between Tier 3/4 schools and T14 schools is inapt because people who can get into the T14 are not going to Tier 3/4 schools.  The comparison is between, say, Fordham and NYU, at best.

[ImVinny!]

Well, maybe they are for reasons such as money, region, etc.

So the question remains. Is this true that Tier 3/4 schools do this?

[Miss P]

Well, maybe they are for reasons such as money, region, etc.

So the question remains. Is this true that Tier 3/4 schools do this?

I think it depends on the school and how much it cares about its bar passage rates.  For instance, Tier 3/4 publics may have a mandate to improve their bar passage rates; privates may just wish to maintain accreditation and keep as much tuition money as possible.

[Lurking Third Year]

im sure firms and judges have great faith in someones functionality after failing five times. the gap in law school grades is larger, is that an illegitimate measure as well?

Five failures doesn't mean much. You could go and take a bar course today, as a prelaw student, and have a reasonable chance at passing the bar; I sh*t you not. So the question is then; are bar passage rates an indication of mental capacity or is there a level of economic influence due to whites, more often then not, being able to afford expensive prep courses? If you want a law school to teach you to pass the bar on the first try, and by your reasoning establish yourself as a better lawyer than another who must retake the test, Thomas Cooley is accepting applications and I hear wonderful things about them.

Is a student's GPA an illegitimate measure of their ability? No, but the bar is, which was the thrust of your last post and the point which I then addressed.

Sorry, but five failures does mean something.  As someone who has taken the bar (and passed on the first try), I would have serious doubts about anyone who couldn't pass the bar after five attempts.  Most states have around an 80% pass rate, and even CA is not that bad if you take out all of the non-accredited takers. 

In addition, everyone takes a bar prep course or at least reviews the books (which would be just as useful, really).  We're talking about a $2,000 investment that you have three years to save for.  There are also plenty of bar loans and other private loans that students can use.  Everyone I know, regardless of their socio-economic background either paid for the courses with loans or had their firms pay for them.  After investing around $100k, there is simply no excuse not to take a bar prep course.

[JTG]

Red,

As much as you'd love for me to be some bumpkin bigot, I'm not.  What you're looking for in my statement is just not there. I'm clearly saying that I think that alternate measures of diversity will succeed in creating a suitably diverse class -- and in some ways more diverse than just a check in a box as a measure of diversity.  I'm NOT saying that black people can't play the cello and Hispanics can't paint well.

Not saying you are. Not even thinking it. I'm just saying that that paragraph is badly expressed (that much is clear), and that I'm not understanding what you're getting at.

You say, "instead", and I think, hmm, false choice: I have no reason to believe that anything other than LSAT scores separates the average black or hispanic candidate from the average white candidate. I wonder if parsely knows something I don't. Do you?

LSAT scores are no small deal. Your point?

[ImVinny!]

Are we seeing any effect in the acceptances yet this year?