Law School Discussion

Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?

zmlbc

Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2006, 03:39:56 PM »
If you're planning on staying in Michigan all your life, I know many, many successful lawyers that attended MSU, Wayne, and even Cooley for that matter.  Heck, one of the district judges where I live is a Cooley grad.  As was already noted, most UMich grads leave the state for higher salaries elsewhere, so there are definitely jobs to go around for the lower tier Michigan schools.

That said, I doubt any of those degrees travel very far beyond the state borders.

Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2006, 03:48:06 PM »
detroit mercy has such an unspectacular lsat range that i'd be surprised if they jumped into t3.

why are law degrees so regional?  if i got my cpa, i'd have a reasonable chance of moving anywhere and finding a job.

i guess its one unattractive aspect of the being a lawyer. 

Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2006, 03:59:25 PM »
detroit mercy has such an unspectacular lsat range that i'd be surprised if they jumped into t3.

why are law degrees so regional?  if i got my cpa, i'd have a reasonable chance of moving anywhere and finding a job.

i guess its one unattractive aspect of the being a lawyer. 

A lot of it is based on reputation and resources. Most people wouldn't feel comfortable hiring a lawyer who went to a law school they'd never heard of, and if you stay in the region, people are likely to have heard of that school. In addition, smaller firms just don't have money to recruit people outside of the region or attend OCI, so they rely on nearby schools to provide new employees. However, you aren't necessarily tied to that region for life. It's just the early years where you're really stuck finding jobs in your region.

jddino

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Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2006, 06:41:17 AM »
I dont know that a JD is as regional as some people on here like to think.  I have spoken to lawyers who are a little older, who tell me that you can go anywhere you want to with a JD, there just may need to be a little more effort on your part, if you want to work somewhere bad enough, you will have to find a way to make it work. 

molaw

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Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2006, 07:34:33 AM »
I dont know that a JD is as regional as some people on here like to think.  I have spoken to lawyers who are a little older, who tell me that you can go anywhere you want to with a JD, there just may need to be a little more effort on your part, if you want to work somewhere bad enough, you will have to find a way to make it work. 

Very much agreed.  I think that ANY degree, MD, JD, MBA, whatever - the school you went to is only crucial in finding your first job.  After you've been in the field a few years the name of your degree-granting institution carrys less and less weight.  It's all about performance.

Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2006, 05:40:23 PM »
Just a couple of things.

I transferred from Detroit Mercy. Many students I know did not do well during the most recent OCI, smart students, law review, etc. There are two transfers at my current school from Ave Maria and one from Michigan State, and they say the same things regarding the scarcity of offers. I would definitely stay away from Ave Maria. Monaghan (I think I spelled that correctly) runs AM like a sole proprietorship and is moving the school to Florida. Keeping accreditation will be a problem if faculty won't move. Michigan has 6 law schools. There is not a huge demand for attorneys.

Next, speaking with older attorneys doesn't mean a heck of a lot. Speak with recent graudates. The market was a lot different ten, even five years ago. Making a lateral move after a few years will make your school a bit less important on your resume, but a more recognized school will carry you much farther. As to large law firms, they usually hire laterals from other top law firms.

One more thing. Keep in mind the importance of OCI, especially if you want to work for a firm. Don't only rely on what firms come to your school but find out who the firms are hiring. UDM and State bring in all the top MI firms (Dykema, Dickinson, Honigman, Butzel, Bodman, etc.), but not all of these will take sudents from these lower tiered schools.

Actually one more thing. Take eveything you hear on this board with a huge grain of salt. I think your best bet would be to talk with students who currently went through the OCI process at the schools you are considering. Stop them in the hallways when you visit and ask them. Look out for yourself. Don't listen to Joe Schmo who "knows tons of attorneys that went to Cooley and work for Skadden."

I feel like an a-hole, but I hope this was helpful.

Please, ask questions.

EMSR

molaw

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Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2006, 03:11:44 PM »
So, it sounds like you are saying that UofD, Ave Maria, and State are all not good choices?  Is that the gist of this?  What school did you transfer to?  Do you think Wayne is any good?

Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2006, 03:36:24 PM »
It's not that I think they are bad schools. In fact, I think they are excellent schools. I speak mostly for UDM, and the faculty is stellar, and I really think Dean Gordon is doing something to improve the reputation of the school, although I disagree with some of his policies.

The fact is that regardless of the quality of education, USNWR really screws things up, and schools like the ones you mention get the raw end of the deal. Top firms want lawyers from top schools; there really is no way around it. The fact remains that to get a firm job coming out of any school in Michigan besides UM is extremely competitive. Even at UM to get a job at a top Vault firm you need close to excellent grades.

Sure top MI firms come to the schools you mention. Dykema, Dickinson, Honigman, Butzel, etc. all interview at these schools, but they only take the very top students. Getting a job with a small to midsize firm can be just as competitive.

I think that chances at Wayne State are probably better than the other MI schools because Wayne brings more law firms to campus. Also, they MIGHT go a BIT deeper into the class. You will still need to be in the top 10-20% to get an interview and probably in the top ten people overall to get a callback.

Nalpdirectory.com is a great resource. You can search by law school and see what firms come to campus. Not every firm will be listed, bu the big ones will be. You can see that firms like Dykema, for example, might take 6 or 7 students for a summer after interviewing at a *&^%-load of schools. You might think MI schools get preference, but I don't think that is the case. I may have already mentioned this, but none of my friends that remained at UDM have secured positions through OCI. All of the students I know at Notre Dame who interviewed with all the MI firms got at least a couple of callbacks. I got them from Dykema, Dickinson, Butzel and Thrun Law Firm. Another transfer student (from MSU) got an offer with Dickinson Wright and another (Ave Maria) with Butzel Long. They also don't know very many people at their old schools who are having luck with law firms.

Reputation of school means a lot, much more than it should in my opinion. I think USNWR sucks for doing what they have done to some very smart students. I have a couple good friends at UDM that are thinking of doing study abroad programs this summer because they can't get callbacks. These are smart people, law review and moot court, which are extremely challenging to do at the same time.

Anyway, I am rambling. My point, if you want to work for a law firm, you better get good grades if you are going to a lower ranked school in Michigan. Firms have a lot of smart students to choose from and very few spots to fill.

EMSR   

ImVinny!

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Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2006, 03:51:13 PM »
Well, AveMaria is doing great actually. As far as the comment about too much religion in the classrooms that is just not true at all. Have you ever observed a class there? If not, then aren't you just assuming (we all know what happens when you just assume things)>
AveMaria came in first again in the state of MI bar exams, and uofM came in third I believe. (just a comment) AveMaria is not moving to FL, where did you get your info?

Another thing, I have heard also about AveMaria moving to T2, anyone else?

Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2006, 04:29:14 PM »
Well, AveMaria is doing great actually. As far as the comment about too much religion in the classrooms that is just not true at all. Have you ever observed a class there? If not, then aren't you just assuming (we all know what happens when you just assume things)>
AveMaria came in first again in the state of MI bar exams, and uofM came in third I believe. (just a comment) AveMaria is not moving to FL, where did you get your info?

Another thing, I have heard also about AveMaria moving to T2, anyone else?


I get most of my information from two former Ave Maria students that have tranferred to Notre Dame this year, one is my roommate. I can give you his email if you like. Also, you could have googled "Tom Monaghan" and florida in the time it took you to write that message and you would have got many hits. Here is one http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008818
Another is here  http://www.cruxnews.com/rose/rose-28may04.html
You will see AM's board "unanimously approved" the move. Where do you get your information?
One more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Monaghan
One more, really  http://experts.about.com/e/t/ti/timeline_of_controversy_at_ave_maria_school_of_law.htm

I believe there is no chance that Ave Maria could move to tier 2 after being accredited for a short period of time, having no alumni base and considering the move to Florida. As you can glean from the article, many professors are unhappy with the move to Florida as are students. Nobody can adequately predict what the rankings will do anyway. Again, where do you get your information? I'm curious to see where you got info on the most recent bar passage rate. I know Ave was strong in 2004, but I also know very few people took the bar and only 37% were employed at graudation. I can show you this infor too if you like.

EMSR