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Author Topic: Michigan 1L Taking Questions  (Read 74798 times)

The Poster

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #970 on: August 09, 2008, 06:50:39 PM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

In my case, yes. but probably not true for summer starters as a whole.
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Mickey Ward

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #971 on: August 09, 2008, 07:03:08 PM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

In my case, yes. but probably not true for summer starters as a whole.

My hometown homie here is far too hard on himself.

I have to say that the designation of AA as a breakfast pastry desert is entirely accurate. I've also found it impossible to locate a decent donut... do any of my compatriots have recommendations on this?

I mean, really... the nearest Dunkies is on the far end of Ypsi, I think.

But, on the other hand.... we have hippie hash.

Bouzie

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #972 on: August 09, 2008, 07:27:13 PM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

In my case, yes. but probably not true for summer starters as a whole.

My hometown homie here is far too hard on himself.

I have to say that the designation of AA as a breakfast pastry desert is entirely accurate. I've also found it impossible to locate a decent donut... do any of my compatriots have recommendations on this?

I mean, really... the nearest Dunkies is on the far end of Ypsi, I think.

But, on the other hand.... we have hippie hash.

Mickey:

Washtenew Dairy on Hoover and Ashley has goooood donuts.  It also has gigantic ice cream cones for $2!
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The Poster

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #973 on: August 09, 2008, 09:04:43 PM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

In my case, yes. but probably not true for summer starters as a whole.

My hometown homie here is far too hard on himself.

I have to say that the designation of AA as a breakfast pastry desert is entirely accurate. I've also found it impossible to locate a decent donut... do any of my compatriots have recommendations on this?

I mean, really... the nearest Dunkies is on the far end of Ypsi, I think.

But, on the other hand.... we have hippie hash.

thanks man, but just tellin like it is. speaking of the hometown, I was there today.

hippy hash is good, but there is an even better breakfast place in Ypsi, the bomber.
quote Stanley J. Watson III
you are doomed in the fated sense, but that's completely irrelevant because that's only from the viewpoint of someone who is not constrained by time. since you are temporal, for all intents and purposes you have the power to change your future

Lindbergh

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #974 on: August 09, 2008, 09:37:00 PM »
If someone posts actual evidence that raising Michigan's LSAT median wouldn't elevate their ranking, and therefore change their image in the minds of students, they're welcome to do so.

Currently, Michigan's median LSAT is 168, which corresponds to a percentile of approximately 97.  If they raised it to 180, that would be a percentile of 100, or 99.99 or whatever.  The percentile is what US News uses in their calculations.  A perfect LSAT median would only gain Michigan 3 percentile points, and the LSAT is only 12.5% of the overall score.  It's just not enough to change anything.

I've seen the numbers crunched, and raising Michigan's median LSAT to 180 makes no difference.  (Conversely, you would have to lower Michigan's median LSAT to 164 before their ranking lowered a notch).  However, doing nothing but raising Michigan's median GPA from 3.68 to 3.73 WOULD raise Michigan a notch to be tied with Penn and Chicago.

I appreciate your substantive response.  However, I still find this difficult to believe, and it doesn't seem to add up.  To begin with, the fact that the difference between a 168 and a 180 is only 3 percentile points is probably irrelevant.  I've seen no evidence that USNews goes by percentiles, and the difference between a 168 and a 180 is in fact 12 actual points.  To say that raising UM's median to 180 would create no change is akin to saying that dropping it to 156 would create no change.  (Or, even under your interpretation, that dropping it to a 165 would create no change.)  Neither claim appears plausible, given how closely ranked the 6-10 schools are on a numerical basis.  (UM is currently only one point behind UC on a 100 point scale, and a loss of one point would drop it out of its current 3-way tie for 9th place.)  Even Boalt, with relatively strong reputation ratings, dropped out of the top ten due to its lower LSAT (around 165) in recent years.

Secondly, when you say the LSAT is "only" worth 12.5% of the overall score, this ignores the fact that 12.5% is in fact a large chunk of the overall ranking (1/8th of the entire total).  Among individual factors, only the rep surveys and 9-month placement figures were higher (with 9-month placement only slightly higher).  The truth is that after the reputation surveys, Selectivity is the most important part of the rankings, and LSAT is by far the dominant factor in the Selectivity measure, weighed as heavily as all other factors combined.

Your own GPA hypo appears to support my position, given that the LSAT is worth 25% more than GPA.  If an increase of .05 in GPA (1/80th or 2% of the 4.0 scale) would be enough to raise UM to Penn/UC levels, than an increase of 3% on the LSAT (measuring conservatively) would presumably be enough to accomplish the same goal.  

Bottom line, Penn was able to move up from the #12 spot to the #7 spot by modest increases in LSAT, combined with creative accounting in their employment figures.  Boalt was able to move from the #12 spot to the #6 spot by modest increases in LSAT.  To claim that UM couldn't surpass both programs, both of which generally have lower reputation scores (especially Penn), with a 12 point LSAT increase simply doesn't add up.  I'm certainly willing to examine any number-crunching you can reference, it may be illuminating.  It just doesn't make sense.  

Of course, UM could also raise their ranking by massaging their employment stats, as Penn and other schools have done.  But it should be noted that higher LSAT's would also probably improve UM's placement, as employers would see it as more competitive.  And UM's acceptance rate would also improve as students began seeing it as comparable to CCN.  

Which, again, was my bottom line.  The question was what would it take for Michigan to be viewed as comparable to CCN (by more people).  The one major difference between UM and CCN is not traditional reputation, but rather student selectivity, especially LSAT's.  If UM had the same LSAT median as CCN (or better), most students would probably see it as comparable to CCN, especially since their rank would probably rise to a comparable or better level, depending on the score increase.  Improvement in other areas would help as well, of course, but those areas would also probably be improved simply by raising the LSAT median.

Bottom line, if Michigan's LSAT median was raised to 180, Employers would look at it completely differently, as would students.  It wouldn't be seen as comparable to CCN, it would be seen as better.  Even a more modest increase would have similar (though correspondingly more modest) results.  Any immediate effect on USNews, though almost certain, is ultimately secondary to this reality.

(Note that I'm not defending USNews in this.  The current ranking of Boalt, UC and Penn is evidence enough that something is seriously messed up with their methodology.)  


Lindbergh

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #975 on: August 09, 2008, 09:40:35 PM »
Dude, that bagel thing is the G*d's honest truth, for reals.  Croissants too.

U of M:  Bad for breakfast pastries.

I've made a terrible mistake.

IIRC, aren't you from another flyover state w/o decent bagels? It'll be just like home!

Yeah, but my whole reason for not attending my regional T4 was to get out of this breakfast pastry blackhole of a state. Is it too late to put an application in at somewhere with better pastries? Or am I stuck at Michigan??

There's decent bagels in A2.  Zingermans may have some.  Those who think otherwise are probably native New Yorkers, and are accordingly spoiled. Given your background, you'll be fine with A2 bagels.

Lindbergh

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #976 on: August 09, 2008, 09:48:07 PM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that most (though not all) summer starters are ED applicants.  (I also believe that all ED admits end up as summer starters, correct?.) 

Given that ED applicants are probably (though not necessarily) more borderline applicants, I would assume that they do, on average, have a slightly lower average numerical profile.  (The fact a prof would try to dispute this is completely foreseeable, but also completely meaningless without supporting data.) It's not going to be a huge difference either way.

I'll also second what others have said about summer start -- most people I've spoken to who've done this appear to love it.  To the extent they form a clique, it's because they actually get to know each other due to the smaller class size.

Ender Wiggin

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #977 on: August 09, 2008, 10:50:24 PM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that most (though not all) summer starters are ED applicants.  (I also believe that all ED admits end up as summer starters, correct?.) 

Given that ED applicants are probably (though not necessarily) more borderline applicants, I would assume that they do, on average, have a slightly lower average numerical profile.  (The fact a prof would try to dispute this is completely foreseeable, but also completely meaningless without supporting data.) It's not going to be a huge difference either way.

I'll also second what others have said about summer start -- most people I've spoken to who've done this appear to love it.  To the extent they form a clique, it's because they actually get to know each other due to the smaller class size.

Some summer starters are ED, but there are a lot (like me) who are not, and the numbers are more than balanced by the waitlist acceptances in the fall. 

My numbers are by no means marginal, and I'm one of the dumb kids in the section. 

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #978 on: August 09, 2008, 11:34:21 PM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that most (though not all) summer starters are ED applicants.  (I also believe that all ED admits end up as summer starters, correct?.) 

Given that ED applicants are probably (though not necessarily) more borderline applicants, I would assume that they do, on average, have a slightly lower average numerical profile.  (The fact a prof would try to dispute this is completely foreseeable, but also completely meaningless without supporting data.) It's not going to be a huge difference either way.

I'll also second what others have said about summer start -- most people I've spoken to who've done this appear to love it.  To the extent they form a clique, it's because they actually get to know each other due to the smaller class size.

Any change that is being discussed is likely the change that no longer allows schools to hide students from ABA reporting students in non fall start programs.  It used to be the case that a school would not have to report the statistics of students in a program like the summer program, and so it became a place for those whose numbers were less than impressive (this may even explain why ED was summer start only); now all statistics are reported, so the benefit to hiding people in the summer class no longer exists.

flyaway

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Re: Michigan 1L Taking Questions
« Reply #979 on: August 10, 2008, 12:05:32 AM »
Do Summer starters have a lower median LSAT/GPA?

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that most (though not all) summer starters are ED applicants.  (I also believe that all ED admits end up as summer starters, correct?.) 

Given that ED applicants are probably (though not necessarily) more borderline applicants, I would assume that they do, on average, have a slightly lower average numerical profile.  (The fact a prof would try to dispute this is completely foreseeable, but also completely meaningless without supporting data.) It's not going to be a huge difference either way.

I'll also second what others have said about summer start -- most people I've spoken to who've done this appear to love it.  To the extent they form a clique, it's because they actually get to know each other due to the smaller class size.

The class size is no smaller for ABCD (summer starters) than for any of the other sections.
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