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Author Topic: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN  (Read 8951 times)

parsley

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2006, 11:49:10 AM »
Argh, I really should proofread when I'm going back and forth between two things...

President_Baccaga

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2006, 11:51:05 AM »
Argh, I really should proofread when I'm going back and forth between two things...

You can always use the "Modify" button. ;)

chewy06

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2006, 11:53:07 AM »
The Islamic diaspora in Europe is completely different than the diaspora in the United States.  The Islamic community in the US is highly integrated comparatively -- they speak English, participate in the economic and social life of the country, etc.  But in Europe, the consolidation of the Islamic community is leading to separate Islamic communities that do not watch Arabic television shows, get all of their news from Arabic broadcasts, do not speak the language of the countries they live in, and withdraw from economic and social life outside of the Islamic communities.  There is, believe it or not, persecution from both sides.  In some areas, women are not allowed to wear the hijab; in others, students are assaulted for attending school during Ramadan.

They have a huge problem on the horizon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonistan_%28term%29
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1593282,00.html

Thank you.

redemption

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2006, 11:55:12 AM »
There's a pretty big difference between a policy and a general call for balance between integration and what are becoming nearly autonomous communities within a country.  Integration doesn't have to necessarily be conforming, but could be accomplished with dialogue, compromise and education could be helpful.

The OP took offense to the general call for balance between integration and multiculturalism, and said nothing about head scarves.


What does the bolded part mean? Could California hippies, for example, or New York Hasidim, be considered semi-autonomous communities?

redemption

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2006, 11:56:10 AM »

Immigrants who decide to move to a foreign country should understand that it is not the country that has the responsibility to alter itself for those who want to come, but rather the immigrants should be accepting of that country's laws and traditions.  I did not live in Italy and expect that Italy start to celebrate the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving.  If I moved to a country in the Middle East, it would be my responsibility to accept its culture; not obligatory for that country to alter itself to support my way of life.


This para is weak.

President_Baccaga

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2006, 12:02:16 PM »

Immigrants who decide to move to a foreign country should understand that it is not the country that has the responsibility to alter itself for those who want to come, but rather the immigrants should be accepting of that country's laws and traditions.  I did not live in Italy and expect that Italy start to celebrate the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving.  If I moved to a country in the Middle East, it would be my responsibility to accept its culture; not obligatory for that country to alter itself to support my way of life.


This para is weak.

Uhhhhh... the idea is pretty sound, but thank you drive thru.

parsley

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2006, 12:06:06 PM »
Quote
What does the bolded part mean? Could California hippies, for example, or New York Hasidim, be considered semi-autonomous communities?

I'd say that middle America doesn't get California hippies... but the comparison is weak.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/01/26/do2601.xml

"European countries are not organically immigrant societies. The groups that went to America in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries did so specifically to become Americans...European countries have none of this melting-pot principle. You cannot become German or Italian with the same ease with which you become American. Also, into this very different European environment came a very different sort of immigrant - people who had no interest in assimilation at all.

They came as settlers, wanting to establish their own communities; at best they favoured a merger - at worst, a takeover. Their approach was nurtured by notions of multiculturalism, a creed appealing to intellectuals, administrators and enforcers, but having almost zero appeal to the home population."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_veil_controversy_in_France
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml
"Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union"

I went to a national security conference this summer where studies on Islamic communities in France were discussed by the researchers, but I'm not sure that they've been published yet.

President_Baccaga

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2006, 12:11:15 PM »
Yet another example of what happens when immigrants aren't assimilated...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/17/wfrance17.xml

Crisis talks over gang attacks on police
By Henry Samuel in Paris
(Filed: 17/10/2006)


The French government yesterday held crisis talks with community leaders in an effort to halt mounting violence in suburbs around Paris, amid news that gangs of youths, mainly of North African descent, were intensifying attacks on police.

Dominique de Villepin, the prime minister, ordered his interior and justice ministers to "toughen up" sentences for those found guilty of assaulting officers, following a meeting with community leaders.

His announcement followed a series of violent incidents over the past weeks, culminating in the ambush of three police officers on Friday by youths in Epinay-sur-Seine, north of Paris.

advertisement"These guys came to kill. They wore balaclavas, and had baseball bats and iron bars," said Joaquin Masanet, the general secretary of the powerful UNSA police union.

The three officers from the anti-crime brigade, BAC, entered the Orgemont housing estate after an anonymous caller reported a violent car theft.

Once inside, their exit was barred and they were set upon by around 50 youths, who pelted the men with stones. Iron bars smashed their windscreen. They tried to reverse, but a second vehicle boxed them in.

The criminals fled only after the officers fired live ammunition into the air and police reinforcements arrived.

One of the officers, Christophe Estève, 30, had two teeth knocked out and needed 30 stitches in his jaw. He was discharged from hospital yesterday.
 

redemption

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2006, 12:15:06 PM »
Parsley --

Don't quote me an opinion piece from the Torygraph, I want to know what you think.

European countries are about as "organically immigrant" as any society or group of societies has ever been.


Talk to me about the Hasidim. Should they toe the balance and wear jeans?


President_Baccaga

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Re: Tony Blair's Comment - CNN
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2006, 12:18:26 PM »
Eh, y'all are close to making me enter this thread for real.

hopes-n-dreams -- you're right about everything you've said so far. This sort of topic just attracts the C-Span call-in types, that's all.

Another pathetic generalization of which you seem to be very fond.