Law School Discussion

"personal experience"


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Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2004, 10:26:28 AM »
Ok, im not sure how.  I just wish that everyone could be treated equally. 


Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2004, 10:57:33 AM »
I agree.


Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2004, 02:06:34 PM »
A few things I find interesting:

The implication in at least one post that anyone who is against affirmative action is unsympathetic to the plight of minorities or is viewing the issue from a selfish point of view.

I've known many minorities who were against affirmative action. Are they unable to relate to themselves?

and keep in mind that it is non-minorities who uphold affirmative action.

That said...I find it troubling that our dedication to civil rights and "all men created equal" has led us to believe that individuals should be rewarded on the basis of their membership in a group, rather than either the group's needs being addressed based on the group's status, or the individual being rewarded based on their own merit.

I do understand the reasoning behind affirmative action. I believe that at one time, it was a legitimate move. I also believe that it has not shown itself to be as effective as expected, and that flaws in the policies have emerged.

it seems to me that levelling the playing field should come in the form of equalizing educational opportunities for children, not in the form of awarding coveted spots in a program to individuals in that minority status simply because they are a minority.

I also think that it's possible to go to far with the levelling the playing field approach. there are few people who sailed through life without a problem. Life isn't fair. We know that; we're adults. And we can always consider our own plight worse than the next guys. maybe someone feels that being a minority was the hardest thing ever. maybe another still carries the pain of their parents' divorce. Or a third thinks about the how being dyslexic as a child put them at a disadvantage for the rest of their life.

Bottom line is...most of us have had our disadvantages...doesn't mean we should get special treatment because of them.* If we continue on this trend, it's just going to end up that everyone is being given 'special preference' except a which case it's no longer special's discrimination against the small handful.

I think everyone here is smart enough to consider beyond their own personal persepctive and think about things in terms of what's good for society as a whole. While affirmative action may have been a logical attempt to solve the big picture problem...I don't see it, in the long run, having the desired results.

Oh, and on the subject of whether people have lost jobs due to affirmative depends on the organization, I think. I've known some companies that don't pay any attention. I've known of other companies that were slapped with a discrimination suit, and then ran out and made an active effort to hire minorities. Because of the field I'm in, I see correspondence every day discussing available openings, etc. I know of at least three companies (I applied to two of them in the past) who clearly state "in an effort to maintain a diverse workforce, Comapny X will consider only minorities for this position, unless no minority candidates apply" or a variation of that (I just copied that from a fax we just received).

*Disclaimer: for those of you who remember my discussion of addressing a head injury, the statement about special treatment may seem hypocritical. however, I have decided to limit mention of the head injury. the application requests explanation of interruption in education and since mine was interrupted (semester off, followed by three part-time semesters), I'll answer truthfully and factually.

Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2004, 05:16:25 PM »
"The implication in at least one post that anyone who is against affirmative action is unsympathetic to the plight of minorities or is viewing the issue from a selfish point of view."

Inability to relate is incongruent with unsympathetic.

"I've known many minorities who were against affirmative action. Are they unable to relate to themselves?"

A minority who is against affirmative action does not have the inability to relate.  A white person against affirmative action because it supposedly hurts them while helping others IS unable to relate.

White people have never had to have a policy put into place in order to ensure they at least have a CHANCE of getting hired.

A white person is white, and a black person is black.  Men are male and women are female.  Men may be able to understand women but cannot RELATE to them.  They are two different concepts. 

A white person whining about not being able to get a job due to the unfair favoritism to blacks is absolutely ridiculous.  Consider that this country is built upon slave labor.

Some examples of White Privilege--
          you are never arrested for DWB
          housing discrimination does not apply to you
          you are not racially profiled
          you are not followed though dept stores

A poster complained about not getting hired at a NYC business because of affirmative action.  Then they say they would not sue that company because they may want to work for them in the future and they don't want to "burn bridges."  Think about this logically... WHY on earth would anyone who is so disgruntled about being overlooked for a job, that they post it on an anonymous board (thinking they are anonymous) even WANT to work for or with this company in the future?  WHY?

Does the poster stand for anything?  Are they for or against anything?  Apparently they are only miffed because a minority applicant got a job they somehow assume should have been theirs.

The world belongs to no-one.  Affirmative action in graduate college admissions is in effect to ensure a broad and diversified student body, with the hopes of eradicating at least some of this ignorance.

Nobody owes anyone a job.  If the worst thing in the world is that you get turned down for a job because of white skin, your life is pretty good.  Maybe you should look to that job rejection as an employer who is trying to be liberal or at least follow the letter of the law, no matter how ridiculous you may feel that law is.  Apply elsewhere, and be thankful you can probably get a cab to the interview, or credit enough to buy a car.

The children of tomorrow who will be living in slums and poverty will be looking to us to change laws, to look out for them, and to make this world a better place for all of us.  Start now by embracing differences instead of complaining about supposed preferences.  The complaining only drives us further apart.

Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2004, 09:36:38 PM »
A couple points. The current political milieu is one which is highly sensitive to racial/ethnic disadvantage. It is also, unfortunately, highly sensitive to a certain amount of "victimization" game playing which constitutes an abuse, essentially, of the affirmative action programs.
It would be nice if such abuse did not occur, probably this topic would be less of a "hot" button and people would be more inclined to give minorities the benfit of the doubt without resentment. I'm old enough to remember an era in which individual initiative was highly valued, but racial and cultural prejudice kept it strictly limited to white protestant middle-class types only. So the current system is more sensitive to the disadvantages to minorities, but gets by the lazy and/or corrupt. Probably no worse than the opposite problem, rich legacy's like GW Bush,
Personally, my personal statement didn't make mention of adversity although their certainly have been. In my lifetime I've lost my left eye, blown a lumbar disc, been blown by jet blast 64 ft down the flight deck of an aircraft carrier followed by a 36 ft drop into the ocean, been beat up and thrown off a 2nd story balcony, etc. I have seen 8 men die on the job; 6 in the military, 2 in civilian life. Not to mention 3 marriages, 2 divorces, and raising kids. Also poverty. I didn't use any of it.

Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2004, 11:15:29 PM »
Well NYUGrad,

You’ll note, I never asked for proof of your statement.  I merely mentioned that stating what you did, which I believe was justification for your frustration, brought your entire post in question because it seems like a lie. 

Since you have decided to offer “proof,” I will show you why ANY reasonably prudent person would seriously question the validity of your statement.

According to you, a company that was so conscious about its hiring practices that it hired an under qualified minority instead of you to AVOID legal repercussions, not only told you that you didn’t get the job because you were not a minority but also gave you the physical evidence reiterating that point.  Wow, they must be real dummies there, huh.

I’m sorry Melissa, it doesn’t sound all true and only works to weaken your argument, which for the most part I found to be compelling but unoriginal and the classic tale of the only class of people more victimized than minorities, the lower-middle class majority.

And still, I have not attacked you (as you have attacked me) or your opinion on affirmative action.  I challenged ONE statement in your argument that works against its point.  Untruths or APPARENT untruths counteract the rest of the argument.  So IF there is a “large NYC Corporation” out there that is as stupid as you say, you should realize that very few people would actually believe it and go on to make an argument without that fact.

Last thing, of course you don’t give a sh*t what someone else thinks about what you have to say.  I would argue that your unwillingness to see that someone else might have an opinion that challenges your sense of reality displays the very sheltered attitude you accuse me of possessing.

Lastly in responce to your assertion of my being sheltered:  I grew up in the 70s in the South.  Right around the time you were being born and Reagan ushered in one of the worst financial periods for middle class in history, I began H.S in PA.  I lived through a time where when an injustice was done, we did something about it, riot, picket, protest, sue.  You burned a few bridges if it meant your children could take the tunnel.  Perhaps that was because we didn’t have the benefit of sending anonymous emails to vent.  Who knows?  We live in a litigious society; it’s what separates us from the animals.  If you don’t get that, you should probably rethink law school.  Either way, you will do well to have someone with a different opinion in the classroom with you.  Maybe you’ll learn not to get so defensive when they bring up a point that counters yours. 

As an aside and I don’t know anything about your heritage just as you nothing about mine but unless there have been a bunch of teenage mothers in the person’s family…I would take off a few of those “greats” when referring to the olden days of Jim Crow and racism.

Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2004, 10:05:38 AM »
Melissa, i must say that on some of your points I agree and some of them i disagree.  But i do agree that nyufag was completely out of line when he accused your experience as being a false hood. 

People come to this board to share experiences about law school, the application process, their opinions on certain issues, and maybe to help someone else better understand the system.  We do not come to this board to be ridiculed for our opinions or accused of our opinions and experiences being exaggerated in any way. 

I disagree with Melissa on the subject of affirmative action.... while it may seem that individuals have the ability to determine their own future, it is hard in a society where their futures have already been determined for them.  Minorities dont have the same opportunities as others in society.  Minorities typically live in poorer neighborhoods, with less funding for schools.  They wont have all the text books, computers, and qualified teachers as upper class white schools.  They will be more focused on surviving than on their education....

perhaps to someone who has never truley experienced life as a minority, such as i myself am, it would seem that they are being discriminated against.  But until minorities have the same opportunities as everyone else, there really is not better solution. 

but at least i can dispute her opinion without calling her a liar.  Melissa has been a great asset to this board, she's given great insight into the app process and she's helped alot of people.  If she says something happened to her.... I wouldnt doubt it did.  Just like i wouldnt doubt something you said either. 

grow up.  learn how to have a difference of opinion without calling someone a liar.  After reading your childish post i almost expected to see you sing at the end "liar liar, pants are on fire".

Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2004, 01:30:06 PM »
Melissa, I too have been passed for jobs for a minority applicant, and I too was more qualified.  Go ahead nyugrad, call me a liar.  I will personally send you the letter that they sent me, stating that "in an attempt to maintain a diverse workforce, we will consider only minorities for this position, unless no minority candidates apply".  And out of the 10 people who were in that room during the group interview..... two were minorities.... and both of them got a job with the company, when only one position was advertised.  Not only did most of the other candidates have more experience than those two minority candidates, but some of us had higher levels of education also. 

Affirmative Action is all about quotas. Some people love to claim that "minorities are under-represented" in colleges, universities, and in certain career fields. Based on this under- representation, the playing field should be leveled using racial or gender based quotas. No other criteria - test scores, grades, or experience are acceptable if they don't result in diversity.  This lowers our expected levels of excellence - it shows that it dosnt matter how qualified a candidate is, jsut as long as we have a few minorities in the group to make it look good. 

If a minority is qualified, by god, give em the job.  If a white person isn't qualified, dont even give them the time of day for an interview.  But if someone is determined to be qualified or not JUST by the color of their skin, what the hell has the world come to?  We teach our children that skin color means nothing, yet we have a government who gives certain skin colors "breaks" and "extra points". 

Affirmative action is reverse discrimination.  Affirmative Action is rarely a matter of choosing among equal candidates. How can we expect that minorities will ever become truly competitive if they are never given conditions in which true competition is necessary?  How are they suppose to be on an equal playing field with the rest of the country if they are given special treatment? 

as far as law school admissions go... law school is an academic environment and schools should choose applicants based on their ability to thrive in that environment regardless of their backgrounds. Secondly, lowering admissions standards for certain minority groups perpetuates stereotypes that members of those groups are less intelligent because it implies that nobody from these groups is smart enough to get into college on his or her own merits. This sort of stereotyping perpetuates the inequalities that affirmative action seeks to eliminate.

so nyugrad, you can call me a liar too.  In the big bad real world, my experience and Melissa's experience happens all the time.  Maybe you should open your eyes to the harsh realities that just because you have been fortunate enough not to experience reverse discrimination that dosnt mean that it dosnt exist, and how wrong your statement : "ANY reasonably prudent person would seriously question the validity of your statement" truly is.  Not any reasonable prudent person, only a shallow minded individual who proceeds through life with blinders on. 

lets all try to stay on topic here, and not accuse others expereinces of not being "entirely truth".  If you can't handle that, maybe you should find another discussion board.  ;D

Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2004, 02:11:47 PM »
the personal attacks are gross all of you.

NONE of you know me, my ethnicity, or my opinion on afirm. action.  Melissa...i never called YOU a liar...only that something you said sounds untrue..I never asked you or anyone esle to justify it...***TAKE THIS BACK..I RE-READ MY FIRST POST AND I DID SAY THAT IF YOU HAD EVIDENCE I'D BE INTERESTED IN HEARING IT**** but I meant to merely gave my opinion on a fact you stated NOT to call you a liar.

I will state my opinion again and that is: the fact that ANYONE BLACK/WHITE or in between KNOWS for a fact, that the ONLY reason you were passed up for a job was because of their race is hard to believe.

I will not continue on this subject because the back and forth has become extremely immature. 


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Re: "personal experience"
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2004, 07:15:07 PM »
nyugrad you're an IDIOT