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Author Topic: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills  (Read 1039 times)

dubsy

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"Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« on: August 20, 2006, 04:07:29 PM »
I am so horrible at drawing proper conclusions especially when "most" and "some" statements are given together, (whether it's most-most, some-some, most-some, etc.).  Does anyone have any hintful rules or clues to help me understnd the concept better so that I know when i can't draw a valid conclusion, and when i can??? please help! thanks
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F. Mercury

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 05:45:07 PM »
I am so horrible at drawing proper conclusions especially when "most" and "some" statements are given together, (whether it's most-most, some-some, most-some, etc.).  Does anyone have any hintful rules or clues to help me understnd the concept better so that I know when i can't draw a valid conclusion, and when i can??? please help! thanks

I don't think you can ever draw a conclusion from  "most-some" or "some-some" premises.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

rickster

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 07:26:16 PM »
Most and some are not the same.  Most is more than half, whereas some is just any amount.

For example:

Most flowers are red, and most flowers are tall.  You know that at least some flowers are both red and tall.

Some flowers are red, and some flowers are tall.  You can make no conclusions.

Some flowers are red, and most flowers are tall.  No conclusions.
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theo

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 09:08:01 PM »
Most and some are not the same.  Most is more than half, whereas some is just any amount.


This may be true, but I'm having trouble finding any LSAT questions that rely on the distinction.

You could conceivably create one.  It's unlikely that one will appear, however.


Here are two recent questions that require the understanding that two different majorities of the same set must overlap:

Dec. 2002, Preptest 39, 2, # 21

Oct. 2003, Preptest 41, 3, # 25
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guybrush

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2006, 12:23:37 AM »
Most and some are not the same.  Most is more than half, whereas some is just any amount.


This may be true, but I'm having trouble finding any LSAT questions that rely on the distinction.

You could conceivably create one.  It's unlikely that one will appear, however.


Here are two recent questions that require the understanding that two different majorities of the same set must overlap:

Dec. 2002, Preptest 39, 2, # 21

Oct. 2003, Preptest 41, 3, # 25



Great, that's exactly what I needed.  Thanks.


So...

Some = at least one, many, all.

Most = at least half, all.


Take the example:

_____ flowers are red and _____ flowers are tall.

Some-Some:  No concrete conclusions.  However, at least one flower MIGHT be both red and tall.

Most-Some:
Same

Some-Most: Same.

Most-Most: At least one flower must be both red and tall.
I think your last one (Most-Most) isn't correct. Example:

Most roses are red: Let's say there are 100 roses. At least 51 are red.
Most red flowers are beautiful: Let's say there are 1000 red flowers. At least 501 of them are beautiful.
Can we conclude that at least one red rose is beautiful? Not really.
At least, that's what came to mind. If this is wrong please let me know.

theo

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2006, 01:05:40 AM »
Most and some are not the same.  Most is more than half, whereas some is just any amount.


This may be true, but I'm having trouble finding any LSAT questions that rely on the distinction.

You could conceivably create one.  It's unlikely that one will appear, however.


Here are two recent questions that require the understanding that two different majorities of the same set must overlap:

Dec. 2002, Preptest 39, 2, # 21

Oct. 2003, Preptest 41, 3, # 25



Great, that's exactly what I needed.  Thanks.


So...

Some = at least one, many, all.

Most = at least half, all.


Take the example:

_____ flowers are red and _____ flowers are tall.

Some-Some:  No concrete conclusions.  However, at least one flower MIGHT be both red and tall.

Most-Some:
Same

Some-Most: Same.

Most-Most: At least one flower must be both red and tall.
I think your last one (Most-Most) isn't correct. Example:

Most roses are red: Let's say there are 100 roses. At least 51 are red.
Most red flowers are beautiful: Let's say there are 1000 red flowers. At least 501 of them are beautiful.
Can we conclude that at least one red rose is beautiful? Not really.
At least, that's what came to mind. If this is wrong please let me know.


You're mis-stating Andrew's post.

You're jumping from roses to red flowers.

quid leges sine moribus vanae proficiunt?

Point and Laugh

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2006, 04:07:33 AM »
Most and some are not the same.  Most is more than half, whereas some is just any amount.


This may be true, but I'm having trouble finding any LSAT questions that rely on the distinction.

You could conceivably create one.  It's unlikely that one will appear, however.


Here are two recent questions that require the understanding that two different majorities of the same set must overlap:

Dec. 2002, Preptest 39, 2, # 21

Oct. 2003, Preptest 41, 3, # 25



Great, that's exactly what I needed.  Thanks.


So...

Some = at least one, many, all.

Most = at least half, all.


Take the example:

_____ flowers are red and _____ flowers are tall.

Some-Some:  No concrete conclusions.  However, at least one flower MIGHT be both red and tall.

Most-Some:
Same

Some-Most: Same.

Most-Most: At least one flower must be both red and tall.
I think your last one (Most-Most) isn't correct. Example:

Most roses are red: Let's say there are 100 roses. At least 51 are red.
Most red flowers are beautiful: Let's say there are 1000 red flowers. At least 501 of them are beautiful.
Can we conclude that at least one red rose is beautiful? Not really.
At least, that's what came to mind. If this is wrong please let me know.

Yeah most-most relationships don't always yield an inference. The example you just stated is one such case.

Most A's are B's and most B's are C's do not yield any inferences.

But there is a case where most-most does yield an inference. When you have something like Most A's are B's and most A's are also C's. Since at least 51% of A's are B's and at least 51% of A's are also C's, there has to be some kind of overlap between B's and C's, yielding the inference some B's are C's. The key here is a given term (A), most of whose members have both qualities B and C.

graphically: B<--most--A--most-->C
yields: B<--some-->C
you want the term in the middle to have 'most' arrows leading away from it

So back to the original example, something like most flowers are red and most flowers are tall gives you the inference that at least one thing that is red is also tall (the flower that happens to overlap). The key here is that there is a given term (flower), most of whose members have both qualities of being red and tall.

graphically: red <--most-- flowers --most--> tall
yields: red <--some--> tall

If you had something like most flowers are red and most things that are red are also tall, you get nothing because there is no single term in the middle that has two different qualities.

graphically: flowers --most--> red --most--> tall
yields nothing, since the term in the middle doesn't have two 'most' arrows leading away from it.

Mr. Incredible

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 02:58:32 PM »
Most and some are not the same.  Most is more than half, whereas some is just any amount.


This may be true, but I'm having trouble finding any LSAT questions that rely on the distinction.

You could conceivably create one.  It's unlikely that one will appear, however.


Here are two recent questions that require the understanding that two different majorities of the same set must overlap:

Dec. 2002, Preptest 39, 2, # 21

Oct. 2003, Preptest 41, 3, # 25



Great, that's exactly what I needed.  Thanks.


So...

Some = at least one, many, all.

Most = at least half, all.


Take the example:

_____ flowers are red and _____ flowers are tall.

Some-Some:  No concrete conclusions.  However, at least one flower MIGHT be both red and tall.

Most-Some:
Same

Some-Most: Same.

Most-Most: At least one flower must be both red and tall.
I think your last one (Most-Most) isn't correct. Example:

Most roses are red: Let's say there are 100 roses. At least 51 are red.
Most red flowers are beautiful: Let's say there are 1000 red flowers. At least 501 of them are beautiful.
Can we conclude that at least one red rose is beautiful? Not really.
At least, that's what came to mind. If this is wrong please let me know.

Yeah most-most relationships don't always yield an inference. The example you just stated is one such case.

Most A's are B's and most B's are C's do not yield any inferences.

But there is a case where most-most does yield an inference. When you have something like Most A's are B's and most A's are also C's. Since at least 51% of A's are B's and at least 51% of A's are also C's, there has to be some kind of overlap between B's and C's, yielding the inference some B's are C's. The key here is a given term (A), most of whose members have both qualities B and C.

graphically: B<--most--A--most-->C
yields: B<--some-->C
you want the term in the middle to have 'most' arrows leading away from it

So back to the original example, something like most flowers are red and most flowers are tall gives you the inference that at least one thing that is red is also tall (the flower that happens to overlap). The key here is that there is a given term (flower), most of whose members have both qualities of being red and tall.

graphically: red <--most-- flowers --most--> tall
yields: red <--some--> tall

If you had something like most flowers are red and most things that are red are also tall, you get nothing because there is no single term in the middle that has two different qualities.

graphically: flowers --most--> red --most--> tall
yields nothing, since the term in the middle doesn't have two 'most' arrows leading away from it.


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dubsy

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Re: "Most" vs. "Some" Rules in TM Drills
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 06:40:40 PM »
thanks guys, this definitely all really helps! although it's going to take me a bit to digest it all...
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