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Author Topic: Attack this argument  (Read 1278 times)

jhospers

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Attack this argument
« on: August 12, 2006, 10:03:59 PM »
Here goes the argument:

Assume that person X's goal is to make money, for him law school is merely a business decision.
He has GPA & LSAT scores which would guarantee him admission into HLS,YLS, and U of T.

He knows that demand for top notch legal talent is very high in new york, and so he wishes to practice there.

Since U of T grads have made their way to NY, and he knows that Canadians are allowed to pass the bar in that state, he argues that he should go to U of T. His investment costs are going to be greatly reduced. U of T's tuition is a lot less than either of Y/H LS, and even after the scholarships. Therefore, since his interest payments are going to be a lot lower, his plan would result in a higher net gain compared to having attended H/Y LS.

His principle is: if two investments achieve the same outcome, choose the investment with the lower initial risk adjusted cost.

What do you folks think of his crazy plan?

Elemental

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Re: Attack this argument
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2006, 09:55:35 AM »
Networking, as you probably know, is a key factor in job opportunities after law school. Studying in Toronto is going to prevent said person from networking in the New York circles, and hinder his/her chances at getting the highest paying starting salary.

Im not saying its completely impossible, but will be much harder.

obamacon

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Re: Attack this argument
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2006, 10:31:56 AM »
Tuition shouldn't be a factor if you plan on going into a top NYC law firm. You might take out $150,000 (at the very most) to pay for law school, but you'd get back over $50,000 for your summer internships and start work with a salary and bonus of around $200,000. Further there are close to zero graduates of Canadian law schools working in the best firms, and convincing them to hire you would be very, very difficult.

The bottom line: Going to a Canadian law school would be a terrible idea if you want to work for a top firm in New York.

Elemental

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Re: Attack this argument
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2006, 07:57:25 PM »
Tuition shouldn't be a factor if you plan on going into a top NYC law firm. You might take out $150,000 (at the very most) to pay for law school, but you'd get back over $50,000 for your summer internships and start work with a salary and bonus of around $200,000. Further there are close to zero graduates of Canadian law schools working in the best firms, and convincing them to hire you would be very, very difficult.

The bottom line: Going to a Canadian law school would be a terrible idea if you want to work for a top firm in New York.


For the most part-- very well put.

Although, 'close to zero' is a slight exaggeration, as a quick search reveals that at just one big law firm in NYC (Sullivan Cromwell), there are 13 lawyers who graduated from Canadian law schools. And thats just one firm.

Now, i still agree with you because although the number is not close to zero, the percentage of canadian lawyers practicing in NYC is very small, especially at big frims, because of how many more lawyers graduated from NY schools.

obamacon

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Re: Attack this argument
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2006, 08:11:47 PM »
Although, 'close to zero' is a slight exaggeration, as a quick search reveals that at just one big law firm in NYC (Sullivan Cromwell), there are 13 lawyers who graduated from Canadian law schools. And thats just one firm.

Now, i still agree with you because although the number is not close to zero, the percentage of canadian lawyers practicing in NYC is very small, especially at big frims, because of how many more lawyers graduated from NY schools.

Sullivan & Cromwell is a bit of an exception. Wachtell and Cravath both have zero lawyers from the University of Toronto.

Elemental

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Re: Attack this argument
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2006, 08:18:13 PM »
Although, 'close to zero' is a slight exaggeration, as a quick search reveals that at just one big law firm in NYC (Sullivan Cromwell), there are 13 lawyers who graduated from Canadian law schools. And thats just one firm.

Now, i still agree with you because although the number is not close to zero, the percentage of canadian lawyers practicing in NYC is very small, especially at big frims, because of how many more lawyers graduated from NY schools.

Sullivan & Cromwell is a bit of an exception. Wachtell and Cravath both have zero lawyers from the University of Toronto.

What about others such as McGill, University of Ottawa, UBC, and York?

Elemental

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Re: Attack this argument
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2006, 08:20:43 PM »
... and just curious.  Why is Sullivan Cromwell an exception? Do they tend to hire more Canadian lawyers? If so, why?

farouk

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Re: Attack this argument
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2006, 09:12:23 PM »
"He has GPA & LSAT scores which would guarantee him admission into HLS,YLS"
No one is guaranteed admission to YLS.

"Networking, as you probably know, is a key factor in job opportunities after law school. Studying in Toronto is going to prevent said person from networking in the New York circles, and hinder his/her chances at getting the highest paying starting salary."

A decent amount of top american firms do OCI in Canada.  Getting a new york biglaw job   has nothing to do with networking.

"but you'd get back over $50,000 for your summer internships"
I wouldn't count on getting a high paying job for 1L; it's possible to get a good position, but I would not factor it into the calculation as a given.

"start work with a salary and bonus of around $200,000."
More like 170K-180K, but close enough.

"Further there are close to zero graduates of Canadian law schools working in the best firms, and convincing them to hire you would be very, very difficult."
American firms hire the top graduates of McGill and Toronto regularly.  These firms also hire UBC and Osgoode grads, though these are fewer.  If you are top of the class and you want to work in the states, you can get a job paying martket.

"Sullivan & Cromwell is a bit of an exception. Wachtell and Cravath both have zero lawyers from the University of Toronto."
There are far more firms that pay market than these three.  In fact, there are over 100 more firms that pay market.  Some firms do OCI in Canada, some do not. 

This is a very hard decision.  If you graduate top of your class from U of T and you don't have social retardation, you can get an NY job.  Unfortunately, planning on achieving top 10% at any school is pure idiotic arrogance (I'm not saying that you were planning on this).  On the other side, median at Harvard can get you into top firms, and will definitely get you at least market pay;  however, that's 150K american later.  Suppose you hate corporate law or they change some rules with NAFTA (unless you're an american citizen), you'll be fvcked.

It's a hard choice and either way is a gamble.