.

[FossilJ]

that is interesting.  i wonder what their reasons are...never makes sense to me when someone overcomes adversity and then when they look back upon it they think that something different would have been better.  overcoming obstacles is exactly what makes you who you are.

but i don't presume to know your close friend, so no disrespect. 

I don't understand how you wouldn't think that something different would've been better.  Not having things given to you on a silver platter, mind you, but an easier route.  That's why parents sacrifice so much to give their kids what they never had.

I also have problems with the phrase "overcoming obstacles makes you who you are".  This is simply not true -- obstacles are only a part of the human dynamic.  There are a myriad factors that played into me becoming who I am, and while overcoming obstacles was a part of that, I'm not about to define myself by my struggles.  Not that I have an ethical qualm with it, but that seems to me an indirect disrespect to people with real struggles who never managed to overcome them through no fault of their own -- you can pick an example, but I'm thinking here of slaves, in particular.

All that said, my friend's views are similar to yours, but differ in some key aspects.  While she's loathe to let people get a leg up for free if they don't deserve it (just like you), she also recognizes that there are definite gaps of minority representation in particular professions, and that AA is the best way to solve this problem (although she'd prefer a better way).  We haven't discussed it in too much depth, so that's about all I can really provide with any certainty. 

I'm just wondering what your counter to that second part of the argument would be.

[pikey]

that is interesting.  i wonder what their reasons are...never makes sense to me when someone overcomes adversity and then when they look back upon it they think that something different would have been better.  overcoming obstacles is exactly what makes you who you are.

but i don't presume to know your close friend, so no disrespect. 

I don't understand how you wouldn't think that something different would've been better.  Not having things given to you on a silver platter, mind you, but an easier route.  That's why parents sacrifice so much to give their kids what they never had.

I also have problems with the phrase "overcoming obstacles makes you who you are".  This is simply not true -- obstacles are only a part of the human dynamic.  There are a myriad factors that played into me becoming who I am, and while overcoming obstacles was a part of that, I'm not about to define myself by my struggles.  Not that I have an ethical qualm with it, but that seems to me an indirect disrespect to people with real struggles who never managed to overcome them through no fault of their own -- you can pick an example, but I'm thinking here of slaves, in particular.

All that said, my friend's views are similar to yours, but differ in some key aspects.  While she's loathe to let people get a leg up for free if they don't deserve it (just like you), she also recognizes that there are definite gaps of minority representation in particular professions, and that AA is the best way to solve this problem (although she'd prefer a better way).  We haven't discussed it in too much depth, so that's about all I can really provide with any certainty. 

I'm just wondering what your counter to that second part of the argument would be.

I completely agree with the bolded section.  Tuttipoopoo, I don't think you intend it, but some of your posts come across as very self-righteous and smug.  My parents made it, why can't you minorities do the same. You're weak if you need the crutch of AA. This is what it sometimes sounds like you are saying.

You're quite welcome to your own opinions on AA, but it's somewhat patronising and paternalistic to imply that you oppose it for the benefit of those poor minorities.  Jsia.

[FossilJ]

Your parents were dirt poor and lived out of a car while working minimum wage jobs for years or you went to a 30k a year private school. Which is it?

Is it just me, or does this question win "Daft Inquiry of the Year"? 

Daft as it may seem the situation just seems ingenuine. In my mind I had the image of an immigrant couple who would shortly have children working minimum wage. No education and no real prospects. If they did make it to be able to afford 30k a year private tuition it is a rarity.

I somewhat in the back of my mind feel as if the real story is they lived in a van touring the US on their summer off of college. The two stories are quite different in that case.

It is not an insult and should not be taken as such. It just feels so impossible and rare that it is a great accomplishment.

This approach just seems ignorant to me.

I think the whole point of the poster relaying the story was to illustrate its unique and extraordinary nature to exaggerate a pertinent claim for clarity.

I don't even know why you'd claim the situation to be ingenuine.  I've worked with so many immigrants who were in various stages of a similar struggle.  Some of them had PhDs and were doing the same $12 an hour job that I was doing (on top of two other jobs) to feed their families.  And yet these same people never tired in looking for lucrative solutions -- a collective trait was the ability to save money on meager wages for future business opportunities.

In fact, my close friend's family was in the exact same situation.  Her father worked two jobs during the day and took courses at night.  Then, with that minimal education, he started a business and spent all day networking and overseeing this fledgling venture only to spend his nights working those same crappy jobs to feed his family. 

Today, he's a multi-millionaire.  He owns four hotels.  My friend got the best of both worlds.  She learned the importance of hard work and the crucial lesson that nothing should ever be taken for granted, but she's also receiving the benefits of a high quality, expensive education, and, starting soon, graduate school.  This is something her own father would never have been able to afford.

I know that this sort of success story needs at least a good sprinkling of luck, but it isn't as rare as you think it is. 

[FossilJ]

 

Not that I'm glorifying the guy at all.  He's an ass.  But his story sure as hell is real, as is Tutti's, I'm sure.

[FossilJ]

Minority =/= race.

Further reply pending.  I'm in a bit of a rush.

[BrerAnansi]

I also have problems with the phrase "overcoming obstacles makes you who you are".  This is simply not true -- obstacles are only a part of the human dynamic.  There are a myriad factors that played into me becoming who I am, and while overcoming obstacles was a part of that, I'm not about to define myself by my struggles.  Not that I have an ethical qualm with it, but that seems to me an indirect disrespect to people with real struggles who never managed to overcome them through no fault of their own -- you can pick an example, but I'm thinking here of slaves, in particular.

All that said, my friend's views are similar to yours, but differ in some key aspects.  While she's loathe to let people get a leg up for free if they don't deserve it (just like you), she also recognizes that there are definite gaps of minority representation in particular professions, and that AA is the best way to solve this problem (although she'd prefer a better way).  We haven't discussed it in too much depth, so that's about all I can really provide with any certainty. 

I'm just wondering what your counter to that second part of the argument would be.

not sure how what im saying is now being equated to indirectly disrespecting slaves...not even really sure how to answer that.  comparing slavery to AA is ridiculous.  I know real struggles exist/existed that are impossible to overcome but that's not what we're talking about AT ALL.  We're talking about people who are in college applying to law school and how affirmitative action relates to that.  That's all I'm going to say about that.  I'm not mad or anything, but this is the exact reason why i don't get involved in these conversations usually.  People turn it into something so much bigger.

Also I understand certain minorities are not well represented in certain professions but I don't think the application process should be altered to favor having more of those minorities in the field.  I know to some of you that sounds rude and all these other things, but you have to understand that that is my opinion and it is not the sole determination of what kind of person I am.  It doesn't make me a bad person.  There are plenty of professions where minorities are not well represented in, but I see no one doing anything about it except for particular cases such as law school / med school acceptances. 

I know a good chunk of people will take that last paragraph as I that I am racist or that I don't want to help other people who have not been as fortunate or all these other different things but that is simply not the case.  It makes sense to me to help people who grew up in poverty for years on end, or who grew up in very tough situations (moving around from house to house in foster care, etc.) and if people want to give them a little advantage that's fine with me.  When race gets added to the mix that is what bothers me.  Race should not be taken into consideration at all.  I know this will probably generate a lot of angry/rude replies, but that's alright.  I know people feel strongly about this subject, and if that means you have to be rude in your reply that's your choice. 

Whether you agree with it or not, there is good reason to want to increase representation of minorities in those particular industries.

1.  If you were to study the demographics of prisons in America, you'd see (percentage-wise if not empirically) that Black males in particular flow into the system at an alarming rate and that their sentences for equitable crimes tend to be harsher than most.

2. In the same way as a potential law student you don't lay awake at night dreaming of making a TV commercial about prosecuting slip and fall injuries, most future doctors don't dream of serving in rough and tumble neigborhoods where the facilities leave much to be desired.

I think at the end of the day in all this discourse we forget the practical issues at play.  Affirmative Action did not come about in a vacuum.  If the larger community was doing a great job of advancing the minority community there would be no issue, but that's not the way it is, is it?  It's great that we're all able to come on here and discuss these issues in a mostly analytical manner, but it is part of the human condition that we identify with and feel responsible for those who come from a similar background and have had the same experiences as we had... and it just so happens that in America some of those experiences are unique to minorities. (you can't blame a harried public defender for thinking "this kid will never learn" when his background is starkly different from his client, but you can make sure that there are more public defenders who can think "I remember what it was like to be this age and to have these particular pressures put on me")

[Paper Chaser]

Bottom line is that none of you will ever agree, probably even partially because you cannot walk in the other peron's shoes...and judging from your attitudes and backgrounds, you would not want to. It is easy to be lazy in a country of lazy asses the same way it is easy to be hungry for wealth and power when you come from a place where you may be killed for it...hmmm...i forget if i am talking about india or the u.s., but either way...you are an outright fool to speak on a life you have not lived or an ethnic group that you do not belong to...whether you are a AA fanactic or part of the system blocking progress it is best to go live in your own little drem land world of what you think is right according to your experiences because thats what the majority of american fools do anyways.

[Paper Chaser]

its funny how your people in India are so backwards in some of their own practices such as still practicing arranged marriages, the various factions of Islam, and the killing because someone believes in the Vedas or another reads the Quran yet you think that everyone here in America is supposed to have their sh*t together...what a f-ing sellout...then again people like you are never sellouts because you were never in in the first place...your parents may have struggled, but you are the epitome of what money and a little supposed class does to minorities in America. Kids like you always disgust me, how you live in this f-ing vacuum of a world, i would love to see your ass come from my neighborhood and still have that same uppity ass mentality. Dont worry about another post, I would not rather waste another conversation with you.

[H4CS]

i'd like to add that you are a racist.  what you said about india is no different than if someone were to say that black people are lazy, 9/10 mexicans mow lawns, white people marry their cousins, asians can't drive well, women are meant to cook and clean, etc.  i love it how this board would get outraged at racism towards blacks or other URMs, but this guy has just spoken racist manner towards me and "my people" yet in the over hundred viwes since he has commented no one has said anything. 

You know, without defending Paper Chaser, it's quite possible to criticize the various problems of another country without being a racist and it is in no way comprable to accusing a race of people of having certain characteristics.  India has many unique problems, let's just start with acid attacks, that it is not doing enough to address.  Only when you say that Indians love throwing acid at women do you start to sound racist.  And yeah, Paper Chaser is a racist, but not for the reason you gave. 

[Paper Chaser]

I am Muslim myself, actually have Indian friends (not Native American, actually from India) who agree with me, have read at least some of the Bhavagita, and have tolerated your nonsense about AA for almost the entire thread. I may be racist, but that would be shocking to my white friends as well as myself. Perhaps if you crawled from under that rock you have been living under for the past twenty years, it might occur to you that everyone has not had your financial advantages in life. If it was so easy for people to lift themselves out of the ghetto then why isn't everyone living swell somewhere in the rich side of town? America, much like the rest of the world, thrives off the misfortunes of the poor, and for you to sit here talking about what YOUR PARENTS went through and not you, shows no appreciation for the people who must pave their own walks in life. If law schools can appreciate that there is a major discrepancy in ratio of whites to non-whites in law schools or all secondary levels of education, who are you to criticize? You know you sound like Clarence Thomas, but maybe that is a compliment to you.