.

[Scholastically Challenged]

only in america do so many people expecting something for doing NOTHING. 

And as you point out, this behavior rarely applies to immigrants or minorities. The real 'free ride' is given to upper class whites.

Trust me!

My grandfather needed better health care access (multiple bypass) and it was not available in India at the time.  My parents got basically automatical citzenship to the United Kingdom because at the time they were giving open citizenship to all people from prior british colonies.  When they got to England they hated it mostly because of the weather and so they applied to come to america.  When their turn came they decided to go there and make the best of it.  Thats basically it.  I'm sure I'm leaving some stuff out, but I think that's the main stuff. 

So your family treats nations as convenient fuelling stations to be exploited for health care, weather, etc? Have you no innate loyalty, you treacherous swine?

You admittedly come here to exploit the natural advantages (economy, health care) and then bemoan others taking advantage of government programs to assist THEM? I suppose you should be permitted to flit about the world and affiliate with whichever nation seems most convenient at the time, while urban minorities should suffer and 'make it on their own.' Charming.

Why not turn it around...if he/she has the scores of getting into a #12 what's so wrong with that?  Why not go to the 12 and not the 4 that you had no shot at if you were a non-urm. 

Stop for a minute.

Do you actually believe that 'lazy' URMs are being admitted to T14s? Do you not think they made just as much effort for their grades and scores -- perhaps more, indeed -- as you did?

There's a real disconnect in the anti-AA logic, wherein this fiction of lazy, good for nothing gangbangers with zero intellectual ability are admitted to Harvard, or wherever. It's ridiculous. HLS URM-AA admits likely represent the absolute top of the range from their background -- they are the ones who have consistently challenged, outperformed. They weren't competing against YOU, with your carefully-zoned schools and "cracking the LSAT" courses; but in the pool from whence they came, they were the absolute superstars.

And you begrudge them their admission? Why?

It's all relative. Apples to apples, boy.

Oh, and by the way: nice name, "tutti poo poo." Your reasoning is eponymous.

what a rude reply.  it's like i set something off inside of you that made you go crazy.  first of all my parents did not come from some land of millionaires, i was only pointing out that india is not full of 1 billion poor people and that believe it or not people do become successful over there as well.  at the time there was a partial strike going on in health care services because of low wages and my father wanted to ensure that my grandfather could survive his surgeries.  you said my parents came here to take for the " natural advantages (economy, health care) and then bemoan others taking advantage of government programs to assist THEM?"  I'm not sure what you are talking about.  They came here, lived in their car for 4 months and showered at the one friends house that they had, pretending that their own shower did not work (of course the friend knew the truth).  They had NO HANDOUTS, no GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS, they HAD NOTHING.  so how can you compare what they went through to AA in its current state?  That is insulting. 

i'd also like to point out that these are my opinions on AA, but that I am not someone that cries every time I hear of a URM acceptance.  Like I said in my earlier posts you have to overcome anything that is on front of you because it is quite honestly not that difficult.  I wasn't giving that line of thinking to just URMs, but to everyone.  And I use it myself.  I'll work hard and be happy wherever I go to school.  I'm not bitching about anything.  I was simply stating that I think AA has many flaws. 

Oh, just read some of Mr. Arkadins posts, before he deletes them. A very arrogant chap, who fantisies himself some figure out of a novel circa 1940. Not much real social experience, but his brain does work overtime. Thinks way too much, especially of himself. Just sit back and watch the little rats follow his tune. Its rather amusing.

[PIP]

the problem with AA is that it helps ALLL sorts of blacks, hispanics, and native americans.  even the rich ones.  even the ones that went to my 30,000 a year private school for high school AND middle school.  even the ones who's parents went to harvard.  even the ones who have a trust fund the size of rhode island. 

thats the problem with AA.  it helps too many people that don't deserve help.

Agreed!

[RUMike]

The problem with AA, in addition to what's already been brought up, is that it doesn't take into account that even white people have experienced discrimination...for decades Jews were barred from colleges, law and med schools. There is plenty of discrimination against other whites- for instance, those of Italian descent like myself. How many Italian-American lawyers are there- or better yet, what percentage of Italian-Americans finish college and go onto grad school? Very few. Yet for some reason, we are not considered underrepresented. Muslims and Arabs face discrimination to this day- but are they considered URMs? No. By the way, the majority of those under the poverty line in America are WHITE. But because the afformentioned groups have not banded together and demanded to be paid back for the crap thrown in their face, they're still considered "undiverse" and not entitled to anything.

[BrerAnansi]

How many Italian-American lawyers are there-

Justices Scalito!

Lol...that's such a gimme...

[RUMike]

haha true but those are more the exception...Justice Thomas doesn't mean blacks are overrepresented...

I actually wish the "Scalitos" weren't Italian...they are giving us a bad rap

[pikey]

The problem with AA, in addition to what's already been brought up, is that it doesn't take into account that even white people have experienced discrimination...for decades Jews were barred from colleges, law and med schools. There is plenty of discrimination against other whites- for instance, those of Italian descent like myself. How many Italian-American lawyers are there- or better yet, what percentage of Italian-Americans finish college and go onto grad school? Very few. Yet for some reason, we are not considered underrepresented. Muslims and Arabs face discrimination to this day- but are they considered URMs? No. By the way, the majority of those under the poverty line in America are WHITE. But because the afformentioned groups have not banded together and demanded to be paid back for the crap thrown in their face, they're still considered "undiverse" and not entitled to anything.

That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

[pikey]

That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean *&^% to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

[queencruella]

That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

It's also extremely hard to use economics as a basis because there's so much you have to take into account- income, location, number of people in the family, and school attended. Where I'm from, some students from lower income areas can be bused to high-income schools, while many other students have no choice to go to their neighborhood schools that have very limited resources.

[pikey]

it doesn't have to be purely economic based i agree.  why not take the current URMs (black, hispanic, native american) and only give AA treatment to those that have 1) had financial hardship  or  2) extraordinary experiences in direct relation to the fact that you are a particular race.  I'm guessing that 1 and 2 will overlap many times, which is fine.   

Like I have said in my previous posts, I have no problem with AA existing, I just don't like it when it helps BOTH the poor black guy who's family had to work 4 jobs to put him through college AND the rich hispanic guy who went to private school for many years.  People say that the latter is very rare, and I'm sure that is true, but just in my experience going to private school I have seen so many people get helped by AA who didn't need the help.  Not only did they not need the help they laughed at the thought that they were getting help even though they did not ask for it. 

I know I haven't thought this out really well...just stating some random thoughts

But how do you define financial hardship?  Attending a private school does not mean that you did not have financial hardship.  My cousin attended an elite private school while her single mother worked long hours to support her and her brother.  She's since won a scholarship that covers her tuition and living expense for college.  Should she have not have aa if she decided to apply to law school.  My grandparents managed to send all three of their kids to boarding school and college on a gas station attendant and hotel maid's salaries.  It becomes subjective, because tax returns don't tell the whole story.

How do you define extraordinary experience for your race?  How would an adcomm define it?  Do they really know what is extraordinary for a black person.  Is there a 'standard' experience for a race.  This would require a group of outsiders (adcomms) to try and define or normalise a race in order to determine what is extraordinary.  Do you see how this is problematic?  Within a race there are a variety of 'typical' experiences.  In fact, this criteria is more likely to help the black kid from the burbs because that can be seen as an extraordinary experience for his race, being the only (or one of a few) black people in his school.  By this criteria, my friend who grew up in suburban FL with only 2 other black people in his school, who first experienced racism in his (mostly White) Methodist church would get more of a boost than the black kid from the 'ghetto', despite the fact that his parents were doctors.

What you fail to realise is that the purpose of AA is not just to help those who are poor or economically disadvantaged.  As with the example of my friend above, wealth does not protect you from discrimination.  Wealth does not ensure that people won't say stupid *&^% to you like, You're smart, unlike most black people.  Wealth will not necessarily protect you from being waaaaaay more likely to be labelled a 'problem' child than the kid who sits next to you and is exactly like you except for race.  In addition, wealth does not mean that you don't have diverse experiences to bring to the table.  Wealth does not make a person any less of a URM.  You still represent an underreresented race and can still help that race, if only by serving as a role model to other URMs.

[Lerting]

That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.