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Lerting

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2006, 03:06:02 PM »
it doesn't have to be purely economic based i agree.  why not take the current URMs (black, hispanic, native american) and only give AA treatment to those that have 1) had financial hardship  or  2) extraordinary experiences in direct relation to the fact that you are a particular race.  I'm guessing that 1 and 2 will overlap many times, which is fine.   

Like I have said in my previous posts, I have no problem with AA existing, I just don't like it when it helps BOTH the poor black guy who's family had to work 4 jobs to put him through college AND the rich hispanic guy who went to private school for many years.  People say that the latter is very rare, and I'm sure that is true, but just in my experience going to private school I have seen so many people get helped by AA who didn't need the help.  Not only did they not need the help they laughed at the thought that they were getting help even though they did not ask for it. 

I know I haven't thought this out really well...just stating some random thoughts

But how do you define financial hardship?  Attending a private school does not mean that you did not have financial hardship.  My cousin attended an elite private school while her single mother worked long hours to support her and her brother.  She's since won a scholarship that covers her tuition and living expense for college.  Should she have not have aa if she decided to apply to law school.  My grandparents managed to send all three of their kids to boarding school and college on a gas station attendant and hotel maid's salaries.  It becomes subjective, because tax returns don't tell the whole story.

How do you define extraordinary experience for your race?  How would an adcomm define it?  Do they really know what is extraordinary for a black person.  Is there a 'standard' experience for a race.  This would require a group of outsiders (adcomms) to try and define or normalise a race in order to determine what is extraordinary.  Do you see how this is problematic?  Within a race there are a variety of 'typical' experiences.  In fact, this criteria is more likely to help the black kid from the burbs because that can be seen as an extraordinary experience for his race, being the only (or one of a few) black people in his school.  By this criteria, my friend who grew up in suburban FL with only 2 other black people in his school, who first experienced racism in his (mostly White) Methodist church would get more of a boost than the black kid from the 'ghetto', despite the fact that his parents were doctors.

What you fail to realise is that the purpose of AA is not just to help those who are poor or economically disadvantaged.  As with the example of my friend above, wealth does not protect you from discrimination.  Wealth does not ensure that people won't say stupid sh*t to you like, You're smart, unlike most black people.  Wealth will not necessarily protect you from being waaaaaay more likely to be labelled a 'problem' child than the kid who sits next to you and is exactly like you except for race.  In addition, wealth does not mean that you don't have diverse experiences to bring to the table.  Wealth does not make a person any less of a URM.  You still represent an underreresented race and can still help that race, if only by serving as a role model to other URMs.

i know this may come as a shock, but blacks do not have a monopoly on bad experiences. someone whose parents die in a car accident is surely deserving of a boost then.

pikey

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2006, 03:07:00 PM »
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That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.

Actually I haven't said that once.  Don't put words into my mouth.
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RUMike

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2006, 12:48:24 AM »
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.

Lerting

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2006, 01:25:00 AM »
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.

Life's not fair.  Oh no, I'm white and my numbers weren't strong enough to get me into Stanford!  Poor me, how will I ever manage at my TTT?

but some colored with bad numbers should get in anyway, yup.

Lerting

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2006, 01:26:44 AM »
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.

Actually I haven't said that once.  Don't put words into my mouth.

so you admit that as a whole you guys aren't smart enough to compete with the big boys. you'll always need affirmative action, just like a midget will always need a weapon to beat a 6'4 bball player.

pikey

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2006, 08:28:50 AM »
Quote
That's because the majority of the people in America are still WHITE.  Use those critical thinking skills by looking at the percentages of each race/ethnicity who live under the poverty line.  It's a completely different story, isn't it?

i agree, but being white or asian and being under the poverty line doesn't mean you are any less poor just because of the fact that your overall race is doing better on average then some.  Averages and percentages doesn't mean sh*t to the guy who's struggling to make ends meet.  Makes no sense why AA should not help these people out.  It also makes no sense how it helps those that have clearly do not need help.  I'm not bitter about it, just think a couple changes should be made so it's more fair.  Isn't that was this is all about?  Making things fair.

Because if AA was solely economic based, those numerous poor white people previously mentioned would crowd out the poor urms and the end result would still be mostly white schools.

why? you and all the others have been saying all along that economics explains urm's poor performance in school. now you're saying that even with this equalized, there is a difference. you need to get your story straight.

Actually I haven't said that once.  Don't put words into my mouth.

so you admit that as a whole you guys aren't smart enough to compete with the big boys. you'll always need affirmative action, just like a midget will always need a weapon to beat a 6'4 bball player.

Nope, didn't say that either.  There you go again with the assumptions.  You might wanna work on that, it'll get you into trouble in a legal career, if that's your intention.
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pikey

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2006, 08:32:53 AM »
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.

AA is seperate from diversity.  That's the whole purpose of the diversity statement.  If admissions committees didn't use it at some point in admissions decisions, they wouldn't ask for it and would just ask you to check a box.  They really don't want more to read.  If you feel that you can provide a diverse perspective, it's your responsibility to share how.
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BrerAnansi

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2006, 09:08:49 AM »
I think what's most unfair is that the way schools decide what's "diverse" or not makes it seem like being black is the most diverse, being hispanic is somewhat diverse, and being white or asian means nothing. Just because you're white or asian doesn't mean you haven't suffered hardship or discrimination. My great-grandfather came to this country at 13 and worked in a coal mine to pay for the rest of his family to be able to come to America...I'm also the first person in my immediate family to go to college, nevermind law school. Ask any  Italian-American my grandfather's age and they will tell you the crap they had to take from the cops, getting beat up in the street just for being Italian in an Irish neighborhood. But none of that counts, since I have to check off the "white" box. Meanwhile, the black kids that I went to high school with, in upper-middle class liberal New Jersey, where they were treated fine and were as wealthy, if not wealthier than the white families in town, reaped the benefits of AA and got into better colleges than the other white students with better numbers. It's simply unfair.

Life's not fair.  Oh no, I'm white and my numbers weren't strong enough to get me into Stanford!  Poor me, how will I ever manage at my TTT?

but some colored with bad numbers should get in anyway, yup.

Lerting you jumped the shark as flame when you refered to Black people as "colored"...I mean where do you go from there??
Grrr...

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2006, 05:17:39 PM »
Your parents were dirt poor and lived out of a car while working minimum wage jobs for years or you went to a 30k a year private school. Which is it?


Is it just me, or does this question win "Daft Inquiry of the Year"? 
Pish, J only wants to waste YOUR time.  Get wise.

FossilJ

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Re: AA feelings..topic beaten to death.
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2006, 05:35:06 PM »
It's funny, Tutti.  Your family situation closely parallels that of someone who is very close to me, yet you have different perspectives on AA.
Pish, J only wants to waste YOUR time.  Get wise.