Law School Discussion

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Poll

Are women given URM benefits in the admissions process, and should they be?

They are not, nor should they be.
 22 (34.4%)
They are, but shouldn't be.
 5 (7.8%)
They aren't, but should be.
 15 (23.4%)
They aren't, and shouldn't be.
 22 (34.4%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Author Topic: Women = URM???  (Read 9236 times)

KristyB

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2004, 08:42:42 AM »
Okay, you guys mistook my post in a few different ways.  My parents were working class as well and I don't think that working class means you can't be a good parent.  Yes, working on the reservation last year was difficult.  I know that the parents of my students worked very hard to support their families and many of them were doing a very good job as parents.  I did also have students that were being abused, exposed to extreme alcoholism, and were already starting to drink at the age of 10.  The parents of these kids were not prepared to be parents.  This is the most recent experience I have had with American kids, so I'm sorry if it sounds uninformed.  It is based soley on my own experience and my own experience shows many of my friends that I would consider intelligent, caring people saying that they don't want to have kids. 

Maybe I misused the word "professional". This word doesn't mean rich or even upper-middle class to me.  To me it means people that care about the world, care about other human beings, and care about their professional lives.  I guess I am slightly idealistic in my views and my definition of professional isn't that of others and I'm sorry for that mistake.  I wonder what those of you have seen in parents that makes you not understand that there are many people out there having children that are not prepared to have them.    I see many professionals that I respect and feel like they would make good parents but aren't having kids because it doesn't fit in with their career goals.  With that in mind, however, I meant there are professionals and non-professionals that shouldn't be having children but are. My comment was directed in a slightly different way than the sentence previous to it.I should have clarified but I was writing quickly and not thinking too much about how it came across, to be honest.  These online forums are new to me and I don't worry about how I sound in them, I guess.
 
I looked at the children I worked with last year and saw so much potential in them but their family lives were so troubled that the chances of them suceeding in life were slim.  And by suceeding I mean not struggling.  I didn't give them an inferiority complex.  I was one of the few adults that believed in some of them and told them on a regular basis that they could do great things in life if they just cared enough to work at it.  Many of them didn't get this at home.  I am happy for you, Jenny, that you had such supportive parents and have done so well.  I am not aiming for Ivy League.  I have never been encouraged to do anything like law school.  It is far more "professional" than anyone in my family has ever attempted. 

The word "elite" does not, nor will it ever apply to me.  I had never even met someone from an Ivy League school until this year.  I've only gotten to know a few people that are above upper-middle class in my lifetime.  I consider my mom, a bank teller, a highly professional person that is exactly the type of person that should have children.  That may sound entirely too backwoodsish (yes, I know that's not a word) for many of you but I just can't believe how a few of the people on this board have mistaken my posts. 

You guys come from a different world than me, obviously.  I am seeing people that shouldn't have kids having them and raising them less than caringly (yes that wording is incorrect).  And it's all about caring.  I have an ex-friend that will most likely be abusive to his kids and wants kids more than anything in the world and a best friend that will not have kids but would be an amazing mother.  So in my world, the wrong people are having kids.  Maybe my experiences are the exception.  I hope this is the case. 

And for MW, I don't really feel like it is essential to edit my posts.  It is an online discussion forum.  Lighten up.  The hostility that I have gotten from this one comment is amazing.  For someone to question my ablility to succeed in law school based on an online forum is ridiculous.  This is my life you are throwing insults at.  Who are you to trash someone's dreams like that?  You don't know me.  You don't know my experiences.  No matter what my problems have been with others on this board, I have never told them that they would do awful in law school.  It's not that I can't handle this type of insult but what happens when you hurl something like this at someone who can't?  I know you have been very helpful to others on this board but the comment directed at me showed a completely other side of you.  Sorry that I was the one that brought it out. 

I apologize for the long post.  I have been off LSD for awhile and must be making up for lost time. 

ElizaB

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2004, 06:53:33 AM »
KristyB -
I completely agree with you on the fact that there are a lot of people out there who should not have kids!!!  Even if noone else understood where you were coming from, I did.  By no means am I saying that having children should be based on "social" class, but I have seen way too many people who have kids who shouldn't be having them...either because they are not emotionally prepared, financially prepared or otherwise.  I live in a city with one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country and everyday I see children who are paying the price for their parents' irresponsibility.  And the worst part about it is that, in most circumstances, the cycle continues on from generation to generation.  If a girl has a baby when she is 12 or 13, then the odds of her baby having a baby as a teen is incredibly high.  If a child is abused, the odds are that they will someday abuse.  (Now, I realize there are exceptions, but going with the statistics alone, these statements are true.)   
Attending: Texas

GentleTim

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2004, 07:45:49 AM »
sidenote: the fact woman were/are/will be higher proportions in graduate and professional programs is because they dont have the same pressure as males to get out and earn a paycheck, imfpo

imfpo?

In my f-ing pimp opinion!

GentleTim

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2004, 07:49:52 AM »
My problem with women being underrepresented has to do with once we get out of law school. There is still a huge gap between the number of women in high positions in law and men in high positions. This may have something to do with law school in some way but I think that is has more to do with our society and still not seeing women as capable in these positions as men. Or maybe women don't have as high of expectations for themselves, I don't know. I'm not saying there aren't powerful women out there in high positions in law, I just think there needs to be alot more.

Then make sure to be one of those women.

Nadia

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2004, 12:48:41 PM »
Good point. It is happening more and more now though. Less professionals are having children which sucks becuase alot of people that should be reproducing aren't.
How old are you anyway? First of all, where do you get your numbers? And "less" professionals? Try "fewer" to be grammatically correct. Oh, and "alot" is not a word.  Good luck in law school.  You'll need it with your less-than-competent grasp of the English language and your lackluster analytical reasoning skills. 

I think its moronic how much criticism Kristyb got for that one comment. It is very easy to see that she did not mean professionals in reference to economic status. If you want to be a lawyer, you have to understand the term benefit of the doubt. If her post was confusing to  some, I suggest they look at her previous posts, to see what kind of person she is and then try to make a judgement of her character, if you must. She is a very smart, helpful person, and I think your attacks are very shallow. Hey but if being negative, catty and judgemental gets you through the day, then maybe you should be looking at less "professional", less "intelligent" boards. I hear that the People Magazine, and Tigerbeat boards are looking for more recruits MSWitterone.

jennyfromblock

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2004, 10:27:48 AM »
Okay, you guys mistook my post in a few different ways.  My parents were working class as well and I don't think that working class means you can't be a good parent.  Yes, working on the reservation last year was difficult.  I know that the parents of my students worked very hard to support their families and many of them were doing a very good job as parents.  I did also have students that were being abused, exposed to extreme alcoholism, and were already starting to drink at the age of 10.  The parents of these kids were not prepared to be parents.  This is the most recent experience I have had with American kids, so I'm sorry if it sounds uninformed.  It is based soley on my own experience and my own experience shows many of my friends that I would consider intelligent, caring people saying that they don't want to have kids. 

Maybe I misused the word "professional". This word doesn't mean rich or even upper-middle class to me.  To me it means people that care about the world, care about other human beings, and care about their professional lives.  I guess I am slightly idealistic in my views and my definition of professional isn't that of others and I'm sorry for that mistake.  I wonder what those of you have seen in parents that makes you not understand that there are many people out there having children that are not prepared to have them.    I see many professionals that I respect and feel like they would make good parents but aren't having kids because it doesn't fit in with their career goals.  With that in mind, however, I meant there are professionals and non-professionals that shouldn't be having children but are. My comment was directed in a slightly different way than the sentence previous to it.I should have clarified but I was writing quickly and not thinking too much about how it came across, to be honest.  These online forums are new to me and I don't worry about how I sound in them, I guess.
 
I looked at the children I worked with last year and saw so much potential in them but their family lives were so troubled that the chances of them suceeding in life were slim.  And by suceeding I mean not struggling.  I didn't give them an inferiority complex.  I was one of the few adults that believed in some of them and told them on a regular basis that they could do great things in life if they just cared enough to work at it.  Many of them didn't get this at home.  I am happy for you, Jenny, that you had such supportive parents and have done so well.  I am not aiming for Ivy League.  I have never been encouraged to do anything like law school.  It is far more "professional" than anyone in my family has ever attempted. 

The word "elite" does not, nor will it ever apply to me.  I had never even met someone from an Ivy League school until this year.  I've only gotten to know a few people that are above upper-middle class in my lifetime.  I consider my mom, a bank teller, a highly professional person that is exactly the type of person that should have children.  That may sound entirely too backwoodsish (yes, I know that's not a word) for many of you but I just can't believe how a few of the people on this board have mistaken my posts. 

You guys come from a different world than me, obviously.  I am seeing people that shouldn't have kids having them and raising them less than caringly (yes that wording is incorrect).  And it's all about caring.  I have an ex-friend that will most likely be abusive to his kids and wants kids more than anything in the world and a best friend that will not have kids but would be an amazing mother.  So in my world, the wrong people are having kids.  Maybe my experiencesare the exception.  I hope this is the case. 

And for MW, I don't really feel like it is essential to edit my posts.  It is an online discussion forum.  Lighten up.  The hostility that I have gotten from this one comment is amazing.  For someone to question my ablility to succeed in law school based on an online forum is ridiculous.  This is my life you are throwing insults at.  Who are you to trash someone's dreams like that?  You don't know me.  You don't know my experiences.  No matter what my problems have been with others on this board, I have never told them that they would do awful in law school.  It's not that I can't handle this type of insult but what happens when you hurl something like this at someone who can't?  I know you have been very helpful to others on this board but the comment directed at me showed a completely other side of you.  Sorry that I was the one that brought it out. 

I apologize for the long post.  I have been off LSD for awhile and must be making up for lost time. 

KristyB,

You said something that was completely wrong, so I think you should take responsibility for it. "Professional" means strong, good "bank-teller" type people and not a elitist socio-economic strata? Sure Kristy...and when Bush was talking about WMD's he really meant to say ice cream, right? Just take personal responsibility of saying something wrong, then trying to cover it up - it makes you look less idiotic. You also tried to disasterously to evade your fault by switching subjects. Yes there is a problem with teenagers having babies, everyone agrees with that Kristy -duh- you are not very revolutionary in that opinion. But seriously you are trying to make us think now that when you said Professional, you were alluding to the definition of being an adult? Which is it Kristy? Bankteller, nice caring people, adult, or ice cream? What is Kristyb's personal dictionary define professional as (Kristy-b-moron-ics)?

Secondly what MW pointed out was completely true. Your analytical skills from your posts seem very lackluster (this past post and many previous). You should stick to the etc. love board on Law School Discussion, which a overwhelming majority of your posts have been on. It seems like a better match for you and your expertise. But hey you could probably get into law school...who said lawyers had to be necessarily the brightest in the bunch?

Jenny

Gummo

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2004, 10:56:12 AM »
It seems like women have slightly higher GPAs and slightly lower LSATs, in general.

KristyB

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2004, 11:28:20 AM »
Good point. It is happening more and more now though. Less professionals are having children which sucks becuase alot of people that should be reproducing aren't.

Jenny,

I am restating my quote again because I do stand by it.  I think that too many professional people out there are choosing their careers over having families.  Who says that you can't have both?  But it's happening.  Women are having to choose one or the other.  Consequently, there are some people out there that would be great parents but feel like they have to choose their careers and so they don't have children.  

My original statement was about how women that strive for a strong career are having to make a choice so that they can have a chance against the men and it is really too bad that we have to do that.  Did you even read the posts before it?  We're missing out on some great families out there.  I hate the idea that I might have to choose between a career or a family.  It shouldn't have to be that way.  That is what my statement meant.

I got off topic because you did.  You turned the argument into who shouldn't be having children (which I never even mentioned) and continued by talking about working class people having decent kids, etc. I wanted to make sure it was clear that I didn't feel the way you thought I did so I put my statement in this context to clear things up.  And I don't think the word professional is synonymous with elite.  I certainly never plan on being elite, or even rich, but I do plan on being a professional.  

I'm not really sure why you are so disgruntled with me.  Maybe I should be flattered that your only posts on this board have been in response to me.  This board originally provided me with much needed information about applying to law school.  There were a few weeks in there that I was really bored with what I was doing so I posted on the love board and others.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that.  I am irritated with the fact that you take this board so seriously that you assume I do too.  I'm not worried about how I sound to a bunch of random people that I will never meet.  If that means that my analytical skills are lacking, then I guess you got me.  This is a ridiculous argument.  I stand by what I said and am sorry that you skewed it into something else.  I'm glad that others understood what I meant.  

It's sad because we should all be rooting for the same team.  Since your only posts have been to criticize me, I don't think you are one to talk about my past posts.  You seem to be one of those people that feels it is important to shoot others down in order for you to get ahead.  The thing that I still don't understand is MW, and now you, feeling compelled to tell someone how they will make an awful lawyer.  And now you are calling me moronic and "not the brightest of the bunch".  That's not what this board is about.  This board is about support (and entertainment for some). We're all supposed to be in this together.  

KristyB

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2004, 11:29:45 AM »

Then make sure to be one of those women.

I plan to be. :)

jennyfromblock

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Re: Women = URM???
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2004, 12:23:57 PM »
Good point. It is happening more and more now though. Less professionals are having children which sucks becuase alot of people that should be reproducing aren't.

Jenny,

I am restating my quote again because I do stand by it.  I think that too many professional people out there are choosing their careers over having families.  Who says that you can't have both?  But it's happening.  Women are having to choose one or the other.  Consequently, there are some people out there that would be great parents but feel like they have to choose their careers and so they don't have children.  

My original statement was about how women that strive for a strong career are having to make a choice so that they can have a chance against the men and it is really too bad that we have to do that.  Did you even read the posts before it?  We're missing out on some great families out there.  I hate the idea that I might have to choose between a career or a family.  It shouldn't have to be that way.  That is what my statement meant.

I got off topic because you did.  You turned the argument into who shouldn't be having children (which I never even mentioned) and continued by talking about working class people having decent kids, etc. I wanted to make sure it was clear that I didn't feel the way you thought I did so I put my statement in this context to clear things up.  And I don't think the word professional is synonymous with elite.  I certainly never plan on being elite, or even rich, but I do plan on being a professional.  

I'm not really sure why you are so disgruntled with me.  Maybe I should be flattered that your only posts on this board have been in response to me.  This board originally provided me with much needed information about applying to law school.  There were a few weeks in there that I was really bored with what I was doing so I posted on the love board and others.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that.  I am irritated with the fact that you take this board so seriously that you assume I do too.  I'm not worried about how I sound to a bunch of random people that I will never meet.  If that means that my analytical skills are lacking, then I guess you got me.  This is a ridiculous argument.  I stand by what I said and am sorry that you skewed it into something else.  I'm glad that others understood what I meant.  

It's sad because we should all be rooting for the same team.  Since your only posts have been to criticize me, I don't think you are one to talk about my past posts.  You seem to be one of those people that feels it is important to shoot others down in order for you to get ahead.  The thing that I still don't understand is MW, and now you, feeling compelled to tell someone how they will make an awful lawyer.  And now you are calling me moronic and "not the brightest of the bunch".  That's not what this board is about.  This board is about support (and entertainment for some). We're all supposed to be in this together.  

So now Professional means well-educated women...wow flip-flop flip-flop, flip-flop.  You said that I turned the argument on who shouldn't be having kids. Maybe you should re-read your previous post, which so astutely states "Less professionals are having children which sucks becuase alot of people that should be reproducing aren't"...wake up KristyB. In that statement you've entitled a "privilege" to a certain segment of society - that tends to be of a socio-economic strata. I doubt your definition of professional is busdriver, bankteller, or janitor. Don't lie. If you believe in the intelligence of this board, why do you try to undermine it by your excuses, lies?

And maybe you shouldn't be so flattered, that I found your comment reprehensible and decided to call it out. Sorry to tell you, but by telling you that you made a dumb comment, and you have a track history of such (I see there are a few persons who have taken issue with you previously because of your un-informed opinions), shows more condemnation then anything. Sorry that I am not a supporter of a classist structure, so I didn't let your comment go unnoticed.

Oh and your remarks about family and professionalism...again a novel, well-thought out remark, KristyB. You really think women should not be confined to the kitchen..and be able to engage in professional pursuits? DONT GO OVERBOARD!!! The absurdity!! KristyB, you are just too progressive and analytically saavy for this board.

Thanks,
Jenny