Dershowitz on Israel

[Miss P]

It does matter, the Russians (soviet union if you wish, what are we going to pick Israeli tribes next?), fought amongst themselves. The tribe of Benjamin was nearly whipped out by some of the other tribes. The Hutus and Tutsis experienced something similar, though they're not as closely related as Israeli tribes. Neither justify a touchy approach to other nations.

Israel has a very valid defense because as recently as 1940ish outside forces attempted to eliminate them. Remember Israel wasn't a nation then. The Holocaust was unique in the history of the world. So was the Stalin regime, and it was worse than the Holocaust by far, but very different.

Israel has been attacked time and again with intent to either destroy them totally or whipe them off the map. If they are paranoid, nobody has a right to blame them, especially given their enemies rhetoric and actions. Maybe it's hard to understand what it's like to be taught to hate another race, but generations after generations of children are taught to hate Jews. Israel is not in a game, they can't just experiment, if they mess up they're all dead, absent another Red Sea.

I didn't think this particular point was about whether Israelis were paranoid for believing that there are anti-Zionists out there (which of course there are) or that there is anti-Semitism out there (which of course there is) or whether Ahmadinejad is a threat (which of course he is).   I thought the question was merely whether the Holocaust has received a mythic status among Jewish people, and Jewish Israelis specifically, that other acts of genocide do not among their survivors.  Frankly, I am not interested in arguing this point and I think that it veers on anti-Semitism.  BUT your distinction between Stalin and Hitler based upon citizenship is not really cutting it for me.  I mean, comparing the different parts of the Soviet Union to the Israeli tribes is absurd.  The Soviet Union is much more akin to the German empire, citizens of which were the Holocaust's primary victims, than it is to Israel, I'm sorry.

[meestameesta]

That is why Iran will ignore them and develop nukes, I will not argue that it is to their advantage to have them.  The difference between us is, I do not see Iran's "productivity" as morally equivalent to Israels.  Not inconsistent.  I understand why they want to, I just do not support what they are going for nor will I agree that it is morally equivalent to Israels goal.

I was not comparing moral equivalence. i was implying that unilateralism and disregard for  international law and order sets a dangerous precedent. for example, when a country, like oh i dont know, the US in 2003, or israel this year, defies the wishes and regulations of the international community and goes on a unilateral rampage, its kind of hard for other countries to look at that precedent and still abide by the same set of rules.
you cannot expect a "do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do" foreign policy to have any legitimacy in todays world.

I would actually agree with you if the reality wasn't that the U.N. has made itself completely irrelevant and incapable of effective enforcement of its resolution.

[Gary Glitter]

ah bough as soon as i have some time i'll discover your address and then i'll gouge your eyeballs out with my thumbnails...

i'm not kidding

cheers!

[Miss P]

ah bough as soon as i have some time i'll discover your address and then i'll gouge your eyeballs out with my thumbnails...

i'm not kidding

cheers!

Gary Glitter, I've always really liked you, but you should know that this kind of threat isn't really funny and could land you in serious trouble.

[Boughetto]

ah bough as soon as i have some time i'll discover your address and then i'll gouge your eyeballs out with my thumbnails...

i'm not kidding

cheers!

Gary Glitter, I've always really liked you, but you should know that this kind of threat isn't really funny and could land you in serious trouble.

you guys!
seriously, i can understand how some people will be unnerved. but there is no need, really. i have sent him a PM telling him my opinion on the matter, this can be dealt with in a civilized and appropriate manner.
no need to get all worked up over it.

[Miss P]

ah bough as soon as i have some time i'll discover your address and then i'll gouge your eyeballs out with my thumbnails...

i'm not kidding

cheers!

Gary Glitter, I've always really liked you, but you should know that this kind of threat isn't really funny and could land you in serious trouble.

you guys!
seriously, i can understand how some people will be unnerved. but there is no need, really. i have sent him a PM telling him my opinion on the matter, this can be dealt with in a civilized and appropriate manner.
no need to get all worked up over it.

I'm not worked up over it; I just think it's idiotic to make a violent threat (and then stress that it's serious) on a discussion board -- especially one for prospective law students.  People in this and the companion threads really lose all sense of perspective.

[TrojanChispas]

Also, I want the "I like Jews but hate Zionism" argument clarified, because CLEARLY from the Iranian president's statements, found in all kinds of places, they amount to the same thing: frequent Holocaust denial and the call for the complete destruction of the Israeli state. Again: no two-state solution, no longterm peace, just the destruction of the largest Jewish population in the world.

when dealing with the ignorant, there are two options: you can educate them, or you can ignore them.
in this case i choose the latter.
get a clue. and learn to stop exaggerating and twisting peoples words around.
ps ahmadinejad didnt deny the holocaust, he said it was "elevated to mythlike status". which is true bc everytime you criticise an israeli they pull out the holocaust card. thats the point he was trying to make.
40 million russians died under stalin, systematically and capriciously. you dont hear them whining and using it as an excuse to exonerate their human rights abuses nowadays.

Wrong, Amadenijad does not believe that the Hollocaust happened.  Remember he wanted to send a team of researchers to Germany to validate the Hollocaust?

[Boughetto]

Wrong, Amadenijad does not believe that the Hollocaust happened.  Remember he wanted to send a team of researchers to Germany to validate the Hollocaust?

Excuse me. Perhaps I wasnt clear about what I said. But first of all, English 101; its Holocaust, not "hollocaust".
Second of all, its AHMADINEJAD, not whatever ridiculous abomination of his name you so carelessly typed up. Clearly you are neither an english major, nor a history or political science major. One hopes that, given these assumptions (if true, of course. if not, then i pity you.), you will not be so brash and bombastic in making wild statements about important historical  and political events.

Now, with that disclaimer out of the way, its time to learn something.
Admahdinejad's 60 minutes interview with Mike Wallace last sunday:
http://throwawayyourtv.com/2006/08/60-minutes-iranian-president-mahmoud.html

You may notice that Ahmadinejad addresses the issue of the Holocaust, and suggests that while he is not sure the Holocaust is real, that IF it is (and it is real, which the Iranian government has affirmed many times), that it is not the Palestinian's fault that such an atrocity occured and that they should not be punished for it. His use of the "myth" is rhetoric (ie "axis of evil") that suggest a very important point: that Britain and the US, with zionist lobby groups used the pretext of the holocaust to bilaterally create the state of Israel irrespective of how the neighboring Arab countries (not to mention the palestinains!) would feel about it. This is the heart of the matter, and the reason there is so much bloodshed in the middle east today. Furthermore, the oft-misquoted statement that Israel should be "wiped off the map" is wrong. Anyone who speaks Farsi (I doubt anybody here does), the ACTUAL translation suggest that israel be "wiped away".. whats the difference you ask? Ahmadinejad has said that if the interests of justice were applied to this situation, Israel would be placed in Europe, of in the US, thereby not infringing upon the territorial rights of the Palestinians.

On another note, does anybody else find Wallace's interview method to be ridiculous and disrespectful? Im talking about leading questions, interrupting a powerful and important head of state, rolling his eyes, sarcasm ("i feel priviledged to be meeting with the iranian president!") and general contempt for a man who will shape the future of the middle east whether people like it or not.
And does anybody else find it a coincidence, that so biased an interviewer (albeit very accomplished in his own right), who addresses the important issue of Israel's conflict in the middle east, with probably the most important man in the region, is himself jewish?
Does this not corroborate my hypothesis about jewish bias in the media?

[TrojanChispas]

you are way out of control. 
1. take it easy, misspellings are common on LSD, build a bridge and get over it
2. quit parsing words here, wiped off and wiped away are the same thing
3. amdanahalasdfadsfjad is a total jackass

HTFH

[Boughetto]

you are way out of control. 
1. take it easy, misspellings are common on LSD, build a bridge and get over it
2. quit parsing words here, wiped off and wiped away are the same thing
3. amdanahalasdfadsfjad is a total jackass

HTFH

and you, sir, are the personification of ignorance.
you know what the difference between you and me is? I can (and do) travel the world, go everywhere from the middle east to asia to europe and north america, with my flag on my backpack, and I will be welcomed and embraced.
You do the same, with your flag and your beliefs, and at best (europe) you will be ridiculed when not shunned, and at worst (take a f-ing guess) you will be beheaded.