Isreal Takes Down the Terrorists

[Miss P]

you know what I'm talking about.  Blame the sovereign state for every  miscalculation, but if it's terrorists.....nothing but sympathy.

If you condemn Hezbollah, then I assume you would admit that Israel is justified in attacking them.  Well, it follows that civilians are always killed during war.

So what's the problem exactly?  And I eagerly await an emphatic outcry next time a rocket slams into an israeli bldg.

Where is all this sympathy for the Hezbollah fighters?  I've been reading these threads, but I think I've only seen one ridiculous post that expresses any such thing.

No, my condemning Hezbollah doesn't mean that I think Israel should attack Lebanon.  I think Israel is justified in self-defense, and should attack Hezbollah if that is necessary to ensure the safety of the Israei people.  My problem is that this assault is not localized to Southern Lebanon, is hurting too many civilians, and is destabilizing the government.  Further, from here it looks as if it will empower, and not destroy, Hezbollah -- though I do hope I am wrong about this.

[Miss P]

Empower?  perhaps in the short term.  This world war will continue until the West and Israel come to terms with the fact that these groups must be wiped out completely...at all cost.

as for sympathy....it doesn't need to be expressed outright.  the very fact that Israel is held to a different standard is enough.

Israel is not held to a different standard.  It's unacceptable for Hezbollah to target civilians.  It's also unacceptable for Israel to target civilians (which I don't believe it has intentionally done, by the way).  I have no sympathy for Hezbollah militants.

[Miss P]

I Agree with you...so we don't seem to be arguing.  But I'm sure you are aware that there is a double standard out there.

No, I don't think there is a double standard, but we can leave it. 

[TrojanChispas]

dam phanny, i though you and I would never agree on anything

the double standard is clear.  Hezbollah is a group of savages so they dont have to play by rules, Israel is civilized so they do.

Even still, Israel is givign plenty of warning that they are about to attack and are 100% justified in responding to rockets launched from civilian areas. 

Either that, or Hezbollah gets a free pass to run roughshod over Israeli security.

Miss P, you are a moderate and seem to have your heart in the right place. But many people believe Israel is not justified no matter what they do unless they let the savages win.

[Miss P]

dam phanny, i though you and I would never agree on anything

the double standard is clear.  Hezbollah is a group of savages so they dont have to play by rules, Israel is civilized so they do.

Even still, Israel is givign plenty of warning that they are about to attack and are 100% justified in responding to rockets launched from civilian areas. 

Either that, or Hezbollah gets a free pass to run roughshod over Israeli security.

Miss P, you are a moderate and seem to have your heart in the right place. But many people believe Israel is not justified no matter what they do unless they let the savages win.

I just don't think anyone is saying that Hezbollah doesn't have to play by the rules.  Who's saying that?  The reason people aren't jumping up and down about the fact that Hezbollah is not playing by the rules is that we all know that it is an organization with the express purpose of breaking the rules and almost none of us disagree that this is terribly wrong.  There's no point in discussing it.

Thanks for the kind words about being a moderate or whatnot.  I am not really a moderate in any sense of the word, but I do try to be fair and reasonable, and I think this is a complex situation more fit more for the scalpel than for the sledgehammer.

[TrojanChispas]

dam phanny, i though you and I would never agree on anything

the double standard is clear.  Hezbollah is a group of savages so they dont have to play by rules, Israel is civilized so they do.

Even still, Israel is givign plenty of warning that they are about to attack and are 100% justified in responding to rockets launched from civilian areas. 

Either that, or Hezbollah gets a free pass to run roughshod over Israeli security.

Miss P, you are a moderate and seem to have your heart in the right place. But many people believe Israel is not justified no matter what they do unless they let the savages win.

I just don't think anyone is saying that Hezbollah doesn't have to play by the rules.  Who's saying that?  The reason people aren't jumping up and down about the fact that Hezbollah is not playing by the rules is that we all know that it is an organization with the express purpose of breaking the rules and almost none of us disagree that this is terribly wrong.  There's no point in discussing it.

Thanks for the kind words about being a moderate or whatnot.  I am not really a moderate in any sense of the word, but I do try to be fair and reasonable, and I think this is a complex situation more fit more for the scalpel than for the sledgehammer.

But to the extent that people criticize Israel, they should first criticize Hezbollah.  I understand that you do not approve of Hezbollah, but many people here and in teh ME do approve of them.

The international criticism should rest upon Hezbollah, not Israel.  At least, people should give Israel credit for the steps they do take to minimize casualties.  Instead, people point out every mistake Israel makes and none of the attrocities that Hezbollah commits.

Hezbollah "is an organization with the express purpose of breaking the rules and almost none of us disagree that this is terribly wrong."  I think that it is terribly wrong and that Hezbollah is responsible for the deaths of every civilian that has died.  If it werent for their adventurism, we would not be having this conversation right now.

[rising2l]

if hezbollah hit an Israeli home killing civilians, I wonder if they'd halt their operations or apologize.

double standard.

It's not a double standard to expect more from a sovereign, democratic nation than the performance of a rogue militia.  But whatever floats your boat.  If you want to view Hezbollah and the IDF on the same moral plane, I don't think that will really suit your purposes very well.

That's right. Israel makes an enormous effort not to kill civilians and the Hizbullah doesn't.

[TrojanChispas]

Iseal and Hezbollah are not viewed the same way becasue they are totally diffrent things. Isreal is a nation with the 2nd highest military spending (per capita) in the world and Hezbollah is a small band of rebels with some fireworks.

So i guess Israel should pull punches until Hezbollah catches up?  would you have the same response if guerillas were attacking the us at the southern border?

[TrojanChispas]

Iseal and Hezbollah are not viewed the same way becasue they are totally diffrent things. Isreal is a nation with the 2nd highest military spending (per capita) in the world and Hezbollah is a small band of rebels with some fireworks.

So i guess Israel should pull punches until Hezbollah catches up?  would you have the same response if guerillas were attacking the us at the southern border?

If a small group of mexicans committed some crimes in the US I would not be in favor of bombing the entire population of mexico to try to get thoes individuals.

Lest say about 5 thousand Mexican guerillas decide that they want to "liberate" california and decide to conduct cross border raids, captureing and killin US servicemen.  The UN is apathetic and the Mexican government is inept.  Further, it turns out that Hugo Chavez is funding the guerillas and calls for the destruction of the US/CA.  The US, with no options left, would be 100% justified in bombing the infrastructure of Mexico to inhibit the resupply efforts of the guerillas.  ALSO, from wherever the guerillas fired rockets, the US would be justified in launching air strikes upon them.  Now, consider the fact that the guerillas have unreasonable demands, and believe their conflict i justified by their religious beliefs, and you have a situation in which the US could not negotiate out of.  the US would be 100% justified in bombing hte hell out of the guerilla positions and infrastructure.

[lp4law]

hey fuckwad, there were long range missles being launched into Israel from right around that building.  Israel unfortunately missed and hit a building.  But the rockets are being fired from a civilian area.  Israel's job is to take them out, accidents happen.  In Tyre they managed a direct score on the rocket launchers, here they didn't.  Too f-ing bad.

This is dead on.  As a former (and well-educated) Marine, it disappoints me that such a high percentage of fellow-Americans delude themselves into believing that, with enough peaceful diplomacy, all cultures can eventually co-exist with all other cultures.  This is a fallacy which ignores the nature of our enemies, and, in a broader sense, our nature as human beings.  The enemy and its allies have committed to their position, which is NOT one of peaceful diplomacy.  It would be advisable for us to do the same while our strategic military capability can still overwhelm theirs.  This enemy is to be admired in one sense:  In life, they fear nothing but the hand of God.   To protect the future of our nation and our way of life, we must be prepared to deliver the hand of God to the enemy once diplomacy proves futile.  Perhaps that time draws near.  Welcome to the human race folks.