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Author Topic: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?  (Read 17355 times)

Lerting

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2006, 07:35:43 AM »
FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS NEEDED. I HAVE READ ALL MESSAGES ON THIS BOARD AN ITS APPARENT THAT SOME OF YOUR HAVE MISSED THE BIG PICTURE. SOME OF YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT "THEY TOOK MY SPOT" OR "THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED". BUT THE ONE I HEARD THE MOST IS "WE HAVE SIMILAR CREDITIALS" I HAVE SEVERAL POINT TO MAKE AND PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND THEM BEFORE ATTEMPTING REPLY!

1. FIRST OFF A PERSON FROM THE PROJECTS OR ANY OTHER ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTEGED INNER/ OUTER CITY IS DEFINTLEY NOT THE SAME AS A WHITE PERSON WHO IS 2, 3, 4... GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENT LETS BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT!! THEIR EXPERICES ARE VERY DIFFERENT ITS AMAZING HOW MUCH CAN BE LEARNED FROM EITHER SIDE ONCE THE MEE.T IT WORKS TWO FOLD A STUDENTS GAINS KNOWLEDGE FROM EACH OTHER WHICH IN TURN HELPS THEM TO SERVE THE COMMUNITY EFFECTIVLEY. A VALUABLE AND UN-CONTENDED BENEFIT OF AA.

2. LETS HONEST AS TO WHY MINORITIES DON'T FARE WELL ON THE CREDENTIALS. WE (YES I SAID WE) HAVE SECOND-THIRD RATE INNER CITY PUBLIC SCHOOLS, HIGH CRIME RATES WHICH PRODUCES STRONG CRITICISMS (WHICH IS PRODUCED BY POVERTY BY THE WAY), AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF SEVERLY LIMITED EXPOSURE TO HIGHER EDUACTION IN GENERAL (HONESTLY WE ALL KNOW MANY NON-URMS HAVE BEEN PUSHED IN TO COLLEGE BY THEIR FAMILY). SO WITH THOSE KINDS OF BARRIERS ITS NO WONDER WHY ITS A HARDER ROAD TO ATTAIN THE POSSIBLITY TO GO TO COLLEGE LET ALONE LAW SCHOOL. ACT AND SAT PREP BELIEVE IT OR NOT IS NOT NECC. OFFERED IN PRIMARILY MINORITY SCHOOLS. WITH THOSE LIFE EXAPERIECES THEY BRING TO THE CLASSROOM OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE 0 IDEA OF WHAT EXPEREINCES EVEN LOOK LIKE IT WILL EDUCATE THEM(LAST I CHECKED THAT WAS THE GOAL OF EDUCATION) AND ALSO EMPOWER THE MINORITES TO EMPOWER THEMSELVES.

3.ITS READILY APPARENT THAT AA IS TAKEN PERSONALLY BY SHORTSIGHTED PEOPLE. THEY SAY THIS PERSON TOOK MY SPOT  HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW IT WAS YOUR SPOT HAVE YOU HAD A LIFE FULL OF HARDSHIPS I MEAN COME ON. BUT THATS BESIDES MY INTENDED POINT. AA IS JUST TRYING TO DIVERSIFY THE CLASS WHILE ALOWING THOSE FROM MINORTY BACKGROUNDS TO HAVE THE SAME OPPURTUNITY. THE OUTCOME WOULD BE A DIVERSIFIED CLASS SENSITIVE TO MORE THAN JUST THE ELITE!!! BELIEVE IT OR NOT ITS ACTUALLY NOT ABOUT YOU!!


4. AA IS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE NOT JUST A FEW PEOPLE.

ONE DAY ONE OF YOU WILL HAVE A CLIENT THATS A MINORITY, SO TELL ME HOW VALUABLE WAS IT TO HAVE MINORITIES IN YOUR CLASS TO TELL ABOUT THEIR CULTURE. AND VICE-VERSA FOR MINORTIES

I KNOW YOU ALL ARE GOING TO ARGUE AN POST AND QUOTE...YADA YADA YADA. BUT HONESTLEY AT LEAST ONE OF YOU WILL BE A LAWYER SO I WRITE THIS IN THE HOPE THAT SOMEONE LOOKS AT WHAT I SAID AND REALIZES THAT WE ARE HERE TO SERVE THE COMMUNITIY

what's there to post and quote? you haven't said anything new. all you've done is equate white with rich and privileged and minority with poor and disadvantaged. since this is clearly not the case i'm not going to bother addressing your individual points.

KingJason

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2006, 07:44:23 AM »
LIKE I SAID I DONT CARE ABOUT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO CRITISIZE. ITS SEEMS TO ME THAT ALL YOU READ WAS THE RICH KID/POOR KID SCENE. THE QUOTE PART WAS PUT IN INTENTIONALLY TO DRAW THE IDIOTS OUT.

KingJason

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2006, 07:54:14 AM »
FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS NEEDED. I HAVE READ ALL MESSAGES ON THIS BOARD AN ITS APPARENT THAT SOME OF YOUR HAVE MISSED THE BIG PICTURE. SOME OF YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT "THEY TOOK MY SPOT" OR "THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED". BUT THE ONE I HEARD THE MOST IS "WE HAVE SIMILAR CREDITIALS" I HAVE SEVERAL POINT TO MAKE AND PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND THEM BEFORE ATTEMPTING REPLY!

1. FIRST OFF A PERSON FROM THE PROJECTS OR ANY OTHER ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTEGED INNER/ OUTER CITY IS DEFINTLEY NOT THE SAME AS A WHITE PERSON WHO IS 2, 3, 4... GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENT LETS BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT!! THEIR EXPERICES ARE VERY DIFFERENT ITS AMAZING HOW MUCH CAN BE LEARNED FROM EITHER SIDE ONCE THE MEE.T IT WORKS TWO FOLD A STUDENTS GAINS KNOWLEDGE FROM EACH OTHER WHICH IN TURN HELPS THEM TO SERVE THE COMMUNITY EFFECTIVLEY. A VALUABLE AND UN-CONTENDED BENEFIT OF AA.

2. LETS HONEST AS TO WHY MINORITIES DON'T FARE WELL ON THE CREDENTIALS. WE (YES I SAID WE) HAVE SECOND-THIRD RATE INNER CITY PUBLIC SCHOOLS, HIGH CRIME RATES WHICH PRODUCES STRONG CRITICISMS (WHICH IS PRODUCED BY POVERTY BY THE WAY), AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF SEVERLY LIMITED EXPOSURE TO HIGHER EDUACTION IN GENERAL (HONESTLY WE ALL KNOW MANY NON-URMS HAVE BEEN PUSHED IN TO COLLEGE BY THEIR FAMILY). SO WITH THOSE KINDS OF BARRIERS ITS NO WONDER WHY ITS A HARDER ROAD TO ATTAIN THE POSSIBLITY TO GO TO COLLEGE LET ALONE LAW SCHOOL. ACT AND SAT PREP BELIEVE IT OR NOT IS NOT NECC. OFFERED IN PRIMARILY MINORITY SCHOOLS. WITH THOSE LIFE EXAPERIECES THEY BRING TO THE CLASSROOM OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE 0 IDEA OF WHAT EXPEREINCES EVEN LOOK LIKE IT WILL EDUCATE THEM(LAST I CHECKED THAT WAS THE GOAL OF EDUCATION) AND ALSO EMPOWER THE MINORITES TO EMPOWER THEMSELVES.

3.ITS READILY APPARENT THAT AA IS TAKEN PERSONALLY BY SHORTSIGHTED PEOPLE. THEY SAY THIS PERSON TOOK MY SPOT  HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW IT WAS YOUR SPOT HAVE YOU HAD A LIFE FULL OF HARDSHIPS I MEAN COME ON. BUT THATS BESIDES MY INTENDED POINT. AA IS JUST TRYING TO DIVERSIFY THE CLASS WHILE ALOWING THOSE FROM MINORTY BACKGROUNDS TO HAVE THE SAME OPPURTUNITY. THE OUTCOME WOULD BE A DIVERSIFIED CLASS SENSITIVE TO MORE THAN JUST THE ELITE!!! BELIEVE IT OR NOT ITS ACTUALLY NOT ABOUT YOU!!


4. AA IS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE NOT JUST A FEW PEOPLE.

ONE DAY ONE OF YOU WILL HAVE A CLIENT THATS A MINORITY, SO TELL ME HOW VALUABLE WAS IT TO HAVE MINORITIES IN YOUR CLASS TO TELL ABOUT THEIR CULTURE. AND VICE-VERSA FOR MINORTIES

I KNOW YOU ALL ARE GOING TO ARGUE AN POST AND QUOTE...YADA YADA YADA. BUT HONESTLEY AT LEAST ONE OF YOU WILL BE A LAWYER SO I WRITE THIS IN THE HOPE THAT SOMEONE LOOKS AT WHAT I SAID AND REALIZES THAT WE ARE HERE TO SERVE THE COMMUNITIY

what's there to post and quote? you haven't said anything new. all you've done is equate white with rich and privileged and minority with poor and disadvantaged. since this is clearly not the case i'm not going to bother addressing your individual points.


SOO WHAT THE HELLL IS THE CASE??!!!

Lerting

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #93 on: August 07, 2006, 08:25:18 AM »
stop playing word games. if they would have gotten in in the absence of affirmative action it was their spot. onward to your next point. aa supporters always say that non-urm's get into the top schools with low 160's lsats but they never seem to show up on lsn. i wonder why.

Your statement is about as sensible as saying "they would have gotten in if fewer qualified people applied" or "they would have gotten in if adcoms put extreme priority on tying your shoes while drunk."  Nobody has a right to a spot and they are not applying in a vaccuum.  Hell, all those spots would have been mine if the only requirement was having my name.  Goddamn URMs stealing my spots.  Bastards don't even have my name.

And LSN is just not an acurate way to measure this.  At admitted students weekends, people would secretly admit that they felt out of place with low scores and were very excited to be there.  One of my friends is going to HYS with a 163, big guy.  I know others in the 160 range.  None of them had heard of LSN.  Most likely because they were too busy doing great things, such as your hypothetical nobel prize winning, to pay attention to piddling sites like these.  Not all of us are that smart.

sure. completely rational.

Lerting

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #94 on: August 07, 2006, 08:27:01 AM »
FIRST I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS NEEDED. I HAVE READ ALL MESSAGES ON THIS BOARD AN ITS APPARENT THAT SOME OF YOUR HAVE MISSED THE BIG PICTURE. SOME OF YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT "THEY TOOK MY SPOT" OR "THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED". BUT THE ONE I HEARD THE MOST IS "WE HAVE SIMILAR CREDITIALS" I HAVE SEVERAL POINT TO MAKE AND PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND THEM BEFORE ATTEMPTING REPLY!

1. FIRST OFF A PERSON FROM THE PROJECTS OR ANY OTHER ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTEGED INNER/ OUTER CITY IS DEFINTLEY NOT THE SAME AS A WHITE PERSON WHO IS 2, 3, 4... GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENT LETS BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT!! THEIR EXPERICES ARE VERY DIFFERENT ITS AMAZING HOW MUCH CAN BE LEARNED FROM EITHER SIDE ONCE THE MEE.T IT WORKS TWO FOLD A STUDENTS GAINS KNOWLEDGE FROM EACH OTHER WHICH IN TURN HELPS THEM TO SERVE THE COMMUNITY EFFECTIVLEY. A VALUABLE AND UN-CONTENDED BENEFIT OF AA.

2. LETS HONEST AS TO WHY MINORITIES DON'T FARE WELL ON THE CREDENTIALS. WE (YES I SAID WE) HAVE SECOND-THIRD RATE INNER CITY PUBLIC SCHOOLS, HIGH CRIME RATES WHICH PRODUCES STRONG CRITICISMS (WHICH IS PRODUCED BY POVERTY BY THE WAY), AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF SEVERLY LIMITED EXPOSURE TO HIGHER EDUACTION IN GENERAL (HONESTLY WE ALL KNOW MANY NON-URMS HAVE BEEN PUSHED IN TO COLLEGE BY THEIR FAMILY). SO WITH THOSE KINDS OF BARRIERS ITS NO WONDER WHY ITS A HARDER ROAD TO ATTAIN THE POSSIBLITY TO GO TO COLLEGE LET ALONE LAW SCHOOL. ACT AND SAT PREP BELIEVE IT OR NOT IS NOT NECC. OFFERED IN PRIMARILY MINORITY SCHOOLS. WITH THOSE LIFE EXAPERIECES THEY BRING TO THE CLASSROOM OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE 0 IDEA OF WHAT EXPEREINCES EVEN LOOK LIKE IT WILL EDUCATE THEM(LAST I CHECKED THAT WAS THE GOAL OF EDUCATION) AND ALSO EMPOWER THE MINORITES TO EMPOWER THEMSELVES.

3.ITS READILY APPARENT THAT AA IS TAKEN PERSONALLY BY SHORTSIGHTED PEOPLE. THEY SAY THIS PERSON TOOK MY SPOT  HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW IT WAS YOUR SPOT HAVE YOU HAD A LIFE FULL OF HARDSHIPS I MEAN COME ON. BUT THATS BESIDES MY INTENDED POINT. AA IS JUST TRYING TO DIVERSIFY THE CLASS WHILE ALOWING THOSE FROM MINORTY BACKGROUNDS TO HAVE THE SAME OPPURTUNITY. THE OUTCOME WOULD BE A DIVERSIFIED CLASS SENSITIVE TO MORE THAN JUST THE ELITE!!! BELIEVE IT OR NOT ITS ACTUALLY NOT ABOUT YOU!!


4. AA IS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE NOT JUST A FEW PEOPLE.

ONE DAY ONE OF YOU WILL HAVE A CLIENT THATS A MINORITY, SO TELL ME HOW VALUABLE WAS IT TO HAVE MINORITIES IN YOUR CLASS TO TELL ABOUT THEIR CULTURE. AND VICE-VERSA FOR MINORTIES

I KNOW YOU ALL ARE GOING TO ARGUE AN POST AND QUOTE...YADA YADA YADA. BUT HONESTLEY AT LEAST ONE OF YOU WILL BE A LAWYER SO I WRITE THIS IN THE HOPE THAT SOMEONE LOOKS AT WHAT I SAID AND REALIZES THAT WE ARE HERE TO SERVE THE COMMUNITIY

what's there to post and quote? you haven't said anything new. all you've done is equate white with rich and privileged and minority with poor and disadvantaged. since this is clearly not the case i'm not going to bother addressing your individual points.


SOO WHAT THE HELLL IS THE CASE??!!!


do you really need it clarified? not all whites are rich. not all blacks are poor.

oh, turn off caps lock before you post again. it's f-ing annoying.

Lawprofessor

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #95 on: August 07, 2006, 10:03:49 AM »
It's not a matter of who has a right to a spot, it is a matter of who deserves a spot.  A person with better credentials deserves a spot more than someone who's aren't as good.  I still for the life of me can't understand how anyone could justify letting an individual who isn't as qualified to take a spot while there are more qualified people who don't have that spot.

Also, you talk about people with great soft factors getting in, and that's great, but they've actually accomplished something.  Being born into a certain race isn't accomplishing something.  It doesn't add to your character at all really, no matter what race your born into.  Character is actions you've taken (or in some cases not taken). 

I have a couple of questions.  How is it determined who deserves a spot?  Do legacies deserve their spots?  If it is just a matter of LSAT and GPA, everyone with the highest LSAT and GPA would always get into every school and even white people with slightly lower LSATs and GPAs would not deserve to get in.  It is interesting that I never see the anti-AA people making the argument that those white students dont deserve to be there. 
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H4CS

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #96 on: August 07, 2006, 10:23:31 AM »
I have a couple of questions.  How is it determined who deserves a spot?  Do legacies deserve their spots?  If it is just a matter of LSAT and GPA, everyone with the highest LSAT and GPA would always get into every school and even white people with slightly lower LSATs and GPAs would not deserve to get in.  It is interesting that I never see the anti-AA people making the argument that those white students dont deserve to be there. 

Well, LP, you're of course rubbing against one of the deeper underlying problems here; that many of those that oppose AA don't like that what they have is not what adcoms want and are essentially arguing that their perceived strengths should be all that is considered in this process.  I call it the Googler theory of AA.

It's hilarious when you realize that in many cases as these people are often just frat-types who coasted their way through just-slight-more-that-minimum coarseloads while boasting how easy it was to study at the last minute to get a B+ without doing any work.  Or they "had a bad freshman year" which is used as an excuse to explain poor performance without taking repsonsibility for it.  Instead of blaming themselves for not doing better, they're scapegoating.  They want to decide who "deserves" a spot and it's them and them alone.  I think this describes about 2/3 of the opposition to AA that we've seen in this thread and on this board in general.

Lawprofessor

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #97 on: August 07, 2006, 10:51:46 AM »
FWIW, I'm saddled with the cruel burden of cruising through anti-AA threads repeating myself ad infinitum. Let's wind it up again, and hope it registers with someone ...

Admissions committees do not exist to reward your merit. Their job is not to pat you on the head and give you blue ribbons because you "deserve" them. Their job, actually, has very little to do with you: they seek to assemble the best possible class for their college, according to whatever criteria strike them as reasonable.

Most will want a class that is ethnically and economically diverse; therefore, they might even reject "more qualified" whites for "less qualified" URMs. Note the quotation marks: anti-AA people always use their own arbitrary definitions of "qualified" here; unsurprisingly, these are numbers-based and convenient to their argument. This is a red herring.

The only true and meaningful definition of "qualified" in this instance is not what YOU think it is, it's what THEY think it is. If someone was admitted in your place, then by definition they are MORE QUALIFIED in this sense. You may not agree that admissions should look beyond LSAT, or whatever, but too bad.

Admissions isn't about YOU, or making you feel good, or rewarding your achievements. If you don't offer what the school wants, too bad. You were playing the wrong game.

Besides, plenty -- a majority, indeed -- of non-URMs are admitted to these classes every year. Why are you so viciously resentful of the URMs, then? Why not kick yourself for being beaten by an entire CLASS of non-URMs? After all, they kicked your ass royally, fair and square. Sucks, doesn't it?

Repeat after me: "I didn't make the cut."

Say it over, like a mantra. You're just not good enough.

Believe that. It's manifestly true.

Now, what was your problem with AA again?



I couldnt have said it any better and I am on an admissions committee.
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aerynn

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2006, 10:52:50 AM »
Also, people are generally much more receptive to economic-based AA than race-based.

The argument is often made that by operating only on race, AA risks ushering in hordes of middle and upper-middle class URMs who faced no hardships at all. I think this is manifestly untrue; if it can be demonstrated that the population targeted by AA is overwhelmingly poor, this should allay some of the concerns, yes?

I think you may be walking down the wrong path with this line of thinking.  Pro-AA people come back with how unfair it is to poor white applicants.  Many pro-AA people don't seem to acknowledge that minorities have unique challenges and unique things they can contribute in a group learning situation (such as a law school classroom employing the socratic method) that white students couldn't contribute even if they are of the same socio-economic status.
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John Galt

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2006, 11:05:31 AM »
I think you may be walking down the wrong path with this line of thinking.  Pro-AA people come back with how unfair it is to poor white applicants.  Many pro-AA people don't seem to acknowledge that minorities have unique challenges and unique things they can contribute in a group learning situation (such as a law school classroom employing the socratic method) that white students couldn't contribute even if they are of the same socio-economic status.

I'm unconvinced this is true. I think poor white applicants get a better ride, overall.

That said, economic AA isn't a panacea, either. Look at Medicaid; the very poor are in better shape for health care than the working poor, whose incomes vault them past the cutoff for coverage. Class inversion is not a solution; it just shifts the problem to another group.

Economic AA would have the same problems -- those on the thresholds would complain. Ultimately, it's a decision that is made on a case-by-case basis.

To perhaps increase my vulnerability further I don't think AA should be mandated; it should simply be reflected in the admissions decisions of colleges keen on building representative and educationally profitable classes. In my optimism, I do believe this happens now.






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