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Author Topic: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?  (Read 17478 times)

John Galt

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2006, 03:01:27 PM »
She ended up going where she got a merit-based scholarship.  She didn't have a ton of money so she needed the scholarship, just wanted one for other reasons than race.  If memory serves me correct she went to Northwestern instead.  There really is no telling if she got into that school off merit alone or because of AA because acceptance letters don't really specify as far as I know. 

so you'd agree that the same is true with the ivy league school as well?

obamacon

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2006, 03:03:28 PM »
She ended up going where she got a merit-based scholarship.  She didn't have a ton of money so she needed the scholarship, just wanted one for other reasons than race.  If memory serves me correct she went to Northwestern instead.  There really is no telling if she got into that school off merit alone or because of AA because acceptance letters don't really specify as far as I know. 

While I admire that sort of spirit, such reckless regard for one's self-interest is problematic at best.

ty1228

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2006, 03:10:59 PM »
I really don't have much to add on the AA debate.  I think both sides have good points and some serious flaws (probably the reason it is such good issue to debate).  I just wanted to say one thing after reading this thread and watching the arguments unfold. 

I think scooby has been very respectful and considerate in sharing a controversial position.  Whether you agree with his opinions or not, I think he deserves courtesy and respect.  I think James Bond on the other hand has weakened his otherwise sound position by saying that scooby's argument is "telling" (seemingly implying that scooby is a racist).  I see no evidence of racism in scooby's posts.  I think Mr. Bond would have a much stronger argument if he would refrain from suggesting that people who disagree with him are racist. 


John Galt

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2006, 03:15:31 PM »
I really don't have much to add on the AA debate.  I think both sides have good points and some serious flaws (probably the reason it is such good issue to debate).  I just wanted to say one thing after reading this thread and watching the arguments unfold. 

I think scooby has been very respectful and considerate in sharing a controversial position.  Whether you agree with his opinions or not, I think he deserves courtesy and respect.  I think James Bond on the other hand has weakened his otherwise sound position by saying that scooby's argument is "telling" (seemingly implying that scooby is a racist).  I see no evidence of racism in scooby's posts.  I think Mr. Bond would have a much stronger argument if he would refrain from suggesting that people who disagree with him are racist. 



I'm james bond and i think your argument would be stronger is you didn't create a strawman. Its telling because he has articulated a conclusion but can't remember the specifics - meaning that he might be committed to the position without actually knowing if it is accurate. Please don't put words in my mouth. If I am going to call someone a racist, I will as everyone on this board is aware.

scooby21322

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2006, 03:19:19 PM »
Well first off, I don't think I have to remember every specific detail of her application to know that even she felt her situation wasn't fair. 

Also, again, I didn't understand what you were asking.  What are you asking if I admit to agreeing to? 

ty1228

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2006, 03:25:15 PM »
No need to get defensive.  Just telling you how your argument looked to an outside observer.  If you intended for your statement to imply something other than racism (as your response to me states) you may have been unsuccessful.  Again, I'm not involved in the debate but I think your words may be easily interpreted in a manner not consistent with your intentions.  With that said, I'm glad my post allowed you to clarify your position so any other confused lurkers may rest assured that you were not calling scooby a racist. 

John Galt

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2006, 03:29:16 PM »
Well first off, I don't think I have to remember every specific detail of her application to know that even she felt her situation wasn't fair. 

Also, again, I didn't understand what you were asking.  What are you asking if I admit to agreeing to? 

I'm not concerned about her position. She isn't here for me to talk to. I'm concerned about your position and why you think she was unqualified. And why her particular situation is indicative of the failure of affirmative action in general. Quite frankly, your points on both of these issues are inadequate. Next we discussed economic affirmative action and I suggested that while it was great in principle, in practice it would have severe flaws - but you weren't able to understand my reasons why. That's fair enough. Although I take issue with your points, I have been nothing but respectful to you (just as you have shown great respect). I resent the previous poster's comments about me suggesting that you are a racist.

The question I most recently asked you is that if a school doesn't specify if one is admitted on "merit" or "affirmative action" how were you able to discern that the girl was unqualified to be at the ivy league school?

John Galt

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2006, 03:30:01 PM »
No need to get defensive.  Just telling you how your argument looked to an outside observer.  If you intended for your statement to imply something other than racism (as your response to me states) you may have been unsuccessful.  Again, I'm not involved in the debate but I think your words may be easily interpreted in a manner not consistent with your intentions.  With that said, I'm glad my post allowed you to clarify your position so any other confused lurkers may rest assured that you were not calling scooby a racist. 

Fair enough.

scooby21322

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2006, 04:48:02 PM »
Well, first of all, I didn't understand what you were getting at when you described the economic affirmative action problems.  I was hoping you could describe the problems in another way.  Maybe I could see what you were getting at if you used different words. 

The point that I was trying to get at with the girl i knew was that she had very similar numbers as the white people at my school (i had a prodominately white school, so she was the only minority in the top 10%), but yet she got into a MUCH better school than the rest of us.  I can't prove definitively that she wouldn't have gotten in anyway, but it does give the appearance that her race had something to do with it. 

Deontologist

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Re: Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2006, 05:35:52 PM »

However, a basic understanding of statistics and reality will confirm that such a policy would overwhelmingly support whites only. 1) Rich whites and Middle class whites score better on the SAT, LSAT than Rich URMs and Middle Class URMs. 2) Rich and Middle class URMs may or may not score better than Poor Whites. 3) Poor Whites score better than Poor URMs. If you agree to the factual validity of those three claims then you must also agree that eliminating race as a consideration would dilute the number of middle class and upper class URMs admitted in favor of their better scoring upper class and middle class white peers. And poor whites would get the bulk of the admissions slots based on this economic boost since they score better than poor URMs and since they outnumber all other ORMs. Thus, you are solidifying access to power based on race -and although that is not as visible as affirmative action, that sort of policy would be detrimental to the goal of racial progress in this country and equal opportunity...

...Fact of the matter is that people want to believe in the American idea that if they work hard and play by the rules then they will get ahead, yet they don't want to accept the obvious: that failure is the individual's fault. Using minorities as a scapegoat is common, but it certainly isn't a reason that we should eliminate a policy. A more plausible way to advance race relations is to increase the black middle class and getting people on the same level educationally, socially, and economically (within reason, through access to basic opportunities for upward mobility) so that we can start to understand each other across cultures. I think affirmative action certainly is a better solution than no solution at all.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point here, but aren't your statements contradictory. If URMs of middle and upperclass SES underperform their White economic and social peers, and also underperform some of their White and Asian socioeconomic inferiors, then how can we justify AA on the basis of increasing "the black middle class and getting people on the same level educationally, socially, and economically..." Once URMs obtain an improved socioeconomic station, is there not an expectation that they will perform (academically) in a manner that reflects their improved lot? Doesn't the idea that URMs with less impressive test scores (but access to greater resources) than poor Whites and Asians reap greater rewards (admissions) actually undermine racial harmony rather than "advance race relations"?