Why Does Affirmative Action need Justification?

[Deontologist]

This idea that we need to grant URMs a "handicap" in order for them to compete is the height of white liberal smugness. 

HBCUs are known to eschew grade inflation, and Red. posted convincing published studies demonstrating that minorities (all else equal) tend to underperform on standardized tests.

So are you fighting to erase "white liberal smugness," or to deny reality?

What I am arguing is that we need to examine realistically why the gap in performance on standardized tests exists and figure out ways to eliminate it, rather than ignore or try to justify it. Unfortunately, the Steele and Aronson piece has been widely misinterpreted. What the study demonstrated is that the presence of stereotype threat exacerbated the performance gap between the black and white test takers. In the absence of the stereotype threat, the gap in performance still persisted. Please review the January 2004 issue of American Psychologist (which is the publication of the American Psychology Association) for a more in-depth analysis of the Steele and Aronson study.

The article is entitled “On Interpreting Stereotype Threat as Accounting for African American–White Differences on Cognitive Tests.”  In it, the authors explain that “scores were statistically adjusted for differences in students' prior SAT performance, and thus, Steele and Aronson's findings actually showed that absent stereotype threat, the two groups differ to the degree that would be expected based on differences in prior SAT scores” and “caution against interpreting the Steele and Aronson experiment as evidence that stereotype threat is the primary cause of African American–White differences in test performance.”

Frankly, it is strange that people would uncritically accept a theory that, in effect, says blacks as a group collapse under mental pressure. Is this a realistic assessment of how proponents of AA actually view black Americans?

[scooby21322]

That was a good point Deontologist.

My problem with AA in 2 sentences or less:

AA sets different academic standards for different races of people which is the same as stating that some races have to do better than others to succeed.  Further, AA creates anomosity towards minorities from the whites and Asians while at the same time casting doubt on minorities real abilities.


And to answer your other question, no, I don't want all-white classes.  That would make me a racist and my minority friends would all tell you that I'm definately not racist.  What I want is the same standards that are set on me to be set on everyone else.  Hopefully minorities can step up and make themselves represented by earning it.  I've seen enough brilliant minorities to know that this is possible. 

[Scholastically Challenged]

I was responding to the post.  You said beating your peers deserves credit, and I was giving an example.  Do you expect insults to make you somehow correct all of a sudden?

Yes, I do.

Tell me, in two lines or less: what is your problem with AA? Do you want an all-white class?

Great offensive move.

Now you tell us in 2 sentences or less why you support AA.

If possible, I'd like to hear a real view - not one cultivated from a life of priveledge and spoon fed success. One that makes your view pertinent and vanquished of self serving idealistic drivel.

[scooby21322]

Are insults part of the liberal's training?  Why is it that I'm automatically a racist because I'm against AA?  

How long ago was slavery?  Were any African Americans today under slavery?  Most African Americans going into school now didn't even live through the biggest part of the civil rights movement that Dr. King led.  Reperations were due to those who were wronged, but this isn't that world.  

How dare you say that I want to keep the minorities in the ghetto.  I would LOVE to see them get out.  That's why I've already expressed I would be a proponent of economic AA.  However, not all minorities live in these conditions, and not all whites don't live in these conditions.  Further, I know the minorities are capable of whatever they want to.  I actually hope one of them is president in 2008.  I would love to see Condi Rice as president.

[Scholastically Challenged]

Now you tell us in 2 sentences or less why you support AA.

It's great to reduce thought to catchphrases and slogans.  Always a winning strategy.

Silence vermin. Your master piper used the same strategy above.

[scooby21322]

All insults, no substance. 

[scooby21322]

The no substance comment was refering to you Demicron.

[Scholastically Challenged]

All insults, no substance. 

You want to see me insult you? Keep sidestepping my posts.

You're being demolished here, and it's a shame you won't stick around to admit it.

He is not really being demolished here. He just hasn't learned the subtle usage of demagoguery like you have. In my estimation its about even. He has more heart and substance but on the head of a scud missile, whereas you have very little heart, slight substance on a ballistic missile.

[scooby21322]

And as to Mr. Arkadin, I have to appologize.  For some reason or another half of your post will show up, then I'll respond, then the other half will show up.  It has been happening ever since we started today.

I'll try to hit them all, but there have been a lot, so if I miss one, I appologize.  First, I can't step into anyone's shoes, but the way I see it, everyone has hardships in one way or another.  I know I have friends who are white who have grown up poor, or in dysfunctional families that probably lived just as hard of a life as anyone else.  I personally will admit that I have it easy, but I have friends of multiple races that have had their share of problems for various reasons.

I have no doubt that AA has reduced racial stratification.  It has made a more diverse playing field.  But, at what cost?  I honestly think that the minorities could get there without the help with a little bit of will-power.  Their scores aren't all that much lower anyway.  I think that AA has given them a self-fullfilling prophecy.  Even more, if the goal is to get a 165 to get into Columbia, then all you'll try to do is get a 165.  If your trying for a 170, you'll try harder.  I wonder if we gave everyone the same goal they'd all perform more similarly.  Just a thought.

[Scholastically Challenged]

He is not really being demolished here. He just hasn't learned the subtle usage of demagoguery like you have. In my estimation its about even. He has more heart and substance but on the head of a scud missile, whereas you have very little heart, slight substance on a ballistic missile.

I like this one too, UNICRON.  It may not be as good as the previous quotation, but it's high-quality text nonetheless.

Am I being mistaken for someone? Good. Perhaps a new player has entered the fray.