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[Miss P]

I honestly can't do this anymore. 

I part with the basic wisdom that bureaucracies are not exclusive to government, but are actually part of any (functional or dysfunctional) large organization, including businesses, and including private health insurers.  The fact is that private health insurers are, for the most part, incredibly inefficient bureaucracies. (Have any of you ever had a problem with a claim?  I'm still trying to resolve one from 2003, by the by.)  Private health insurance bureaucracies are also less efficient than public health bureaucracies as measured in bottom-line terms, as I have posted repeatedly with absolutely no counter-evidence from the other side.  The only evidence in this thread that public health insurance is inefficient is that freak says Medicare takes too long to bill him. (What does he do, anyway?  Insurance defense?  I can't figure this out.) Since Medicare has a dedicated trust fund and doesn't invest its money in private securities, it hardly matters one whit that it takes three months before collecting small amounts of revenue (or recouping small losses, whatever the case may be): all this means is that it is not operating hand-to-mouth, a desparate situation that we shouldn't wish on any government agency on which 43 million people depend. 

This may be the most inane and lopsided argument I have ever had, which is a pity since there are probably plenty of good arguments one can make against universal public health care, and I would have enjoyed seeing them.  Anyway, I'm done.  Go on thinking you're so much smarter and more practical than I am.  I don't care.

[Astro]

I'm just glad I quoted that post.  It speaks for itself.  I honestly don't want to drag this on any further.  We've got new articles, and nobody responds to the substantive stuff anyway.


::ponders Alci's wisdom for making jokes and evading subject::
::becomes disciple::



::...sort of::

[A.]

[Freak]

Obviously you're tired of this Miss P. You either didn't read or misread my argument because you grossly mischaracterized it, more so than you usually do. I'm dropping this argument because we've explored both the moral & economic implications of it.

I'll state my position a final time - but will not respond to any commentary.

Economic - UHC will be inefficient ---> government programs are inherently inefficient ---> number of hands (IRS on onward = administrative cost) the money passes through b/t taxpayer & recipient. 

Moral - Those who could afford HC should pay for it before they buy a new car or jacket, failing to = no HC & rightly so. Those unable to afford it should take care of themselves & failing to should = no public HC & rightly so.

I'm done, not another comment.

[Astro]

Obviously you're tired of this Miss P. You either didn't read or misread my argument because you grossly mischaracterized it, more so than you usually do. I'm dropping this argument because we've explored both the moral & economic implications of it.

I'll state my position a final time - but will not respond to any commentary.

Economic - UHC will be inefficient ---> government programs are inherently inefficient ---> number of hands (IRS on onward = administrative cost) the money passes through b/t taxpayer & recipient. 

Moral - Those who could afford HC should pay for it before they buy a new car or jacket, failing to = no HC & rightly so. Those unable to afford it should take care of themselves & failing to should = no public HC & rightly so.

I'm done, not another comment.

This, more than anything else you've written, makes me livid.  You've run in inane circles for weeks, and now you want to pretend like you've actually made a real argument.  Cady was right.



Oh *&^%.  WWAD? 

::refrains from more::

[Miss P]

Obviously you're tired of this Miss P. You either didn't read or misread my argument because you grossly mischaracterized it, more so than you usually do. I'm dropping this argument because we've explored both the moral & economic implications of it.

I'll state my position a final time - but will not respond to any commentary.

Economic - UHC will be inefficient ---> government programs are inherently inefficient ---> number of hands (IRS on onward = administrative cost) the money passes through b/t taxpayer & recipient. 

Moral - Those who could afford HC should pay for it before they buy a new car or jacket, failing to = no HC & rightly so. Those unable to afford it should take care of themselves & failing to should = no public HC & rightly so.

I'm done, not another comment.

You know what?  I wasn't trying to characterize your so-called argument.   The key word in my post was "evidence." 

Oh, and sit on it.  Seriously.

[Miss P]

Actually, no, I'm not done.  But this is again a general comment about your form of reasoning and not a specific argument about health insurance.

Economic - UHC will be inefficient ---> government programs are inherently inefficient ---> number of hands (IRS on onward = administrative cost) the money passes through b/t taxpayer & recipient. 

This is a classic example of the fallacy of accident, as I tried to explain before.  For the purposes of illustrating why this doesn't work, I will accept the premise (not univerally accepted) that government is generally less efficient than private industry.  If I provide evidence that certain government programs are more efficent than certain private industries, this general rule, even if it is true, is no counter to that evidence.

By way of analogy, I will use an example with which we are all familiar, law school admissions.  Black law school applicants generally have lower numerical entry credentials (GPAs, scores) than white law school applicants.  You can come up with a lot of reasons this is the case -- ranging from liberal accounts of racial differences in access to test preparation and education to racist theories of differences in innate intelligence -- just as you can come up with reasons that government programs may generally be inefficient.  Yet none of these general rules tell us much about the qualities of individual applicants.  Say you and I were comparing two applicants, Moni, who is black, and Cougar, who is white.  Here's how a conversation analagous to the one we had about health insurance would go:

P: Moni has a 176 and Cougar has a 156. If you think the LSAT is important, you should admit Moni.

Freak: But Moni is black. And we all know that black applicants have lower entry credentials.  Thus, you must be mistaken: Moni must not really have a 176.  Also, black students tend to do worse in law school than white students.  Thus, Cougar is a better applicant.

[LadyKD]

What is this now the 3rd one in two weeks? What in the hell is really going on?

Reports: 17 shot, gunman dead at Northern Illinois University
Story Highlights
CNN confirms gunman, who opened fire in a lecture building, is dead

17 people shot, many in the head, according to a hospital official

University had ordered student body to seek shelter, and it canceled classes

Law enforcement official says that shooter used at least a shotgun

(CNN) -- A person who shot at least 17 people Thursday at Northern Illinois University's DeKalb campus outside Chicago has died, a law enforcement official tells CNN.

Many victims were shot in the head, said Theresa Comitas, spokeswoman for Kishwaukee Community Hospital, about 10 minutes from the school.

At least three victims are in critical condition, eight are in stable condition and six are in good condition, a hospital official tells CNN.

One of the wounded was transferred by helicopter to Rockford Hospital, she said. There were no fatalities at the hospital, she said.

According to the Chicago Tribune, the DeKalb County coroner's office said no fatalities had been immediately reported.

At 4 p.m. (5 p.m. ET), the school said there was no further danger and that counselors would be made available.

A law enforcement official being briefed on the situation told CNN that the shooter used at least one shotgun. The official declined to be identified further because the incident was still developing.

Kevin Mcenery said he witnessed the shooting.

The gunman "just kicked the door open, just started shooting. All I really heard was just people screaming, yelling get out," he said.

"Close to 30 shots were fired."

"He was wearing a black shirt, dark pants, black hat. ... He started with a shotgun, then turned to a pistol."

Rosie Moroni, a student at the school, told CNN she was outside Cole Hall near the King Commons at 2:30 p.m. (3:30 p.m. ET) when she heard shots coming from the classroom she had intended to enter.

The shot was followed by "a lot of people screaming," then people ran out the doors yelling, "He's got a gun, call 9-1-1," she said.

"It was complete chaos ... it's very scary here right now."

"It has been confirmed that there has been a shooting on campus and several people have been taken away by ambulance," the school said in the posting on its DeKalb campus Web site. "All classes are canceled on the DeKalb campus. People are urged not to come to campus."

Friday classes also are canceled at the school's DeKalb campus.

"All NIU students are asked to call their parents as soon as possible," the school said in a posting.

The 113-year-old school is 65 miles west of downtown Chicago and has an enrollment of more than 25,000. The campus covers 755 acres.

A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives told CNN that some of its agents were already on the scene to assist.

He said ATF agents could help trace the weapon or weapons used.

An FBI spokesman said several of that agency's agents were en route to the scene to assist.

A woman named Corrine described the scene to CLTV, saying she was "carried out" of Cole Hall by a "wave" of students running for their lives.

"When one of the kids said, 'This guy is shooting!' I just ran to the next building as fast as I could and hid in an empty classroom."

[A.]

They really should try to do everything they can to keep these gunmen alive.  Then throw them into the general prison population.

[LadyKD]

They really should try to do everything they can to keep these gunmen alive.  Then throw them into the general prison population.

Well most are killing themselves.Like the woman in Lousiana last week  After she killed the other two women she killed herself. I am just amazed at the frequency of these shootings.