Law School Discussion

In off Cornell WL

Towelie

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Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2006, 10:55:44 PM »
PS You'll also see from the National Law Journal 250 survey that GW lands in top 10 for law schools "most mentioned" (i.e., it's one of the schools most mentioned by 250 elite national law firms as where they draw their associates from). Cornell doesn't make the top 10. Sorry, Ezra!

1 Georgetown (114)
2 University of Virginia (97)
3 Harvard (96)
4 University of Michigan (93)
5 Duke (83)
6 New York University (80)
7 Columbia (76)
8 Northwestern (66)
9 George Washington (64)
10 University of Pennsylvania (63)
(The National Law Journal, November 2004)



I second what Celtigo said. Without Yale, Chicago, or Stanford, it's hard to take it seriously. While it may show that GW does, at the very least, well in career placement, it is nowhere near those 3 schools not mentioned.

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2006, 10:57:49 PM »
I think there's a lot of distortion going on in this thread. I was in a very similar position to the OP so I have some perspective on this debate. Obviously if you are set-on DC and can't stand upstate New York and feel very confident you will be in the top 20% at GW, then you'll be fine going there for what you want. If you are less confident about where you might end up in the class, if you might want to entertain other legal markets, or wonder about transition options from private to gov't to in-house etc, I think it becomes obvious that Cornell will have a lot of advantages.

I think the distortion that "because GW places 65 in DC and Cornell places 26, GW must be definitively better for DC BigLaw" is pretty easy to see through. This doesn't account for the fact that Cornell, even moreso than most other T14 schools, suffers from a lot of regional self-selection. A lot of kids go to Cornell knowing they want to end up in NYC, or feel the most opportunities are present there, and end up going there. This does not mean that if more Cornell kids suddenly went for DC jobs that they couldn't get more than 26 (they easily would). It also does not account for the fact that GW has over twice as many students entering the job market each year versus Cornell. I think even most DC lawyers will tell you that Cornell is simply a better law school than GW.

It's also telling that Williams and Connolly, who as another posted pointed out may very well be the MOST selective firm in DC, does OCI at Cornell but not at GW.

It basically looks to me like this thread has been taken over by some very obvious GW trolling, or by people that are on the Cornell WL and would love to convince you to give up your spot so they might have a chance at it.

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2006, 11:00:06 PM »
True, but Penn makes the NLJ list....

Just stumbled across the new US News international law rankings for 2006 -- placing GW at 6th and Cornell at 13th. Not a huge difference, but Cornell is in a five-way tie for 13th. Would comb through the faculty pretty carefully if I were choosing amongst them....

I think Decisions could really go either way and be fine, but it seems to me that GW has a slight int'l/govt placement edge and a big personal edge. But that's just me -- I can't fathom living in Ithaca for longer than the Cornell tour.


Towelie

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Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2006, 11:05:13 PM »
True, but Penn makes the NLJ list....

Just stumbled across the new US News international law rankings for 2006 -- placing GW at 6th and Cornell at 13th. Not a huge difference, but Cornell is in a five-way tie for 13th. Would comb through the faculty pretty carefully if I were choosing amongst them....

I think Decisions could really go either way and be fine, but it seems to me that GW has a slight int'l/govt placement edge and a big personal edge. But that's just me -- I can't fathom living in Ithaca for longer than the Cornell tour.



It doesn't surprise me at all that Penn made that list, mainly because most of the top law firms are in New York and Penn sends an extraordinary amount of kids to NYC every year (I've heard that almost 50% of the last graduating class wound up there, but I could be wrong). Also, Penn is 50+ people larger in size than Cornell, Stanford, Chicago, and Yale, so that also leads me to not be that surprised.

Just because GW may have a better international law program (and really, given their location in contrast to Ithaca's, they should), it does not mean GW places better in jobs dealing with international law. Abroad, one would have to assume the Cornell name carries much better than GW. 

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2006, 11:12:47 PM »
Undecided06,

Not a GW troll or a Cornell waitlister (instead, waiting out *another* waitlist, with a view towards reapplying next cycle if it doesn't work out). FYI....

In all events -- I think we've beat this one to death, and in lieu of replying at length, will just let "Decisions" decide tomorrow. Best of luck -- and enjoy GW or Cornell, whatever the case may be....

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2006, 11:26:59 PM »
Goose,
Let me peace through the data in a little bit when I get the chance. Just two quick things:
I should say I am somewhat suprised at some of the numbers cited, but here are two quick thoughts on why the Leiter survey may be misleading.

The study suffers from a fairly low sample size for any iindividual market with a fairly wide geographic breadth., kinda like the electoral college giving the little guys a disproportionate say in the end result. If this study went deeper into elite NYC firms for example (of which there are plenty not represented in the three above) Cornell's "minor" advantage would probably expand quite a bit.

Second GW seems to have a greater lead in smaller legal markets. Your SoCal citations of San Diego and LA are case in point. As a Cali native I can tell you that SD is and always will be the little bro of the region. The Cornell grads seem to do well in LA, and would not seek out job opportunities satellite markets like SD. A GW grad's shot at an elite LA firm is not as strong and those that still desire to be in the Southland would seek other options. I wouldn't be stunned if Orange County hiring stats also showed a similiar advantage for GW.

In retrospect I guess the similarity isn't totally stunning, although Cornell's numbers are stronger, it is arguably the weakesst of the T14  with GW a very strong T20.





I just had to comment on this post because San Diego (aside from the unlikely Williams and Connolly hire) is my first choice in regards to where I want to practice. I know it's LA's "little brother", but I like it better.

Hey I'm with you there. I've lived up north for a long time  and would never be able to  deal with LA's traffic, smog, sprawl, etc. If I ever ended up in SoCal it would be San Diego, Santa Barbara, or a cabin up in the San Gabriels or San Bernadinos.

Towelie

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Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2006, 11:54:17 PM »
Goose,
Let me peace through the data in a little bit when I get the chance. Just two quick things:
I should say I am somewhat suprised at some of the numbers cited, but here are two quick thoughts on why the Leiter survey may be misleading.

The study suffers from a fairly low sample size for any iindividual market with a fairly wide geographic breadth., kinda like the electoral college giving the little guys a disproportionate say in the end result. If this study went deeper into elite NYC firms for example (of which there are plenty not represented in the three above) Cornell's "minor" advantage would probably expand quite a bit.

Second GW seems to have a greater lead in smaller legal markets. Your SoCal citations of San Diego and LA are case in point. As a Cali native I can tell you that SD is and always will be the little bro of the region. The Cornell grads seem to do well in LA, and would not seek out job opportunities satellite markets like SD. A GW grad's shot at an elite LA firm is not as strong and those that still desire to be in the Southland would seek other options. I wouldn't be stunned if Orange County hiring stats also showed a similiar advantage for GW.

In retrospect I guess the similarity isn't totally stunning, although Cornell's numbers are stronger, it is arguably the weakesst of the T14  with GW a very strong T20.





I just had to comment on this post because San Diego (aside from the unlikely Williams and Connolly hire) is my first choice in regards to where I want to practice. I know it's LA's "little brother", but I like it better.

Hey I'm with you there. I've lived up north for a long time  and would never be able to  deal with LA's traffic, smog, sprawl, etc. If I ever ended up in SoCal it would be San Diego, Santa Barbara, or a cabin up in the San Gabriels or San Bernadinos.


Oh man, I would love to live in Santa Barbara. I spent a weekend camping out on a beach there a few years back and fell in love with it. Ditto on LA's traffic. When I was in town to visit UCLA/USC it took me over 2 hours to travel about 4 miles on the highway to get to Disneyland. I don't think I've ever cursed so much in my life. AND IT WAS 3 IN THE AFTERNOON! I'm thoroughly convinced nobody in LA actually works, they just drive for a living to piss off tourists.

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2006, 03:02:49 PM »
yeah i hear you on the SD thing - it's my #1 choice for where i want to practice. apparently its a small market and many lawyers want to work there for obvious reasons and is thus a very, very competitive market to break into. we will see...

Goose,
Let me peace through the data in a little bit when I get the chance. Just two quick things:
I should say I am somewhat suprised at some of the numbers cited, but here are two quick thoughts on why the Leiter survey may be misleading.

The study suffers from a fairly low sample size for any iindividual market with a fairly wide geographic breadth., kinda like the electoral college giving the little guys a disproportionate say in the end result. If this study went deeper into elite NYC firms for example (of which there are plenty not represented in the three above) Cornell's "minor" advantage would probably expand quite a bit.

Second GW seems to have a greater lead in smaller legal markets. Your SoCal citations of San Diego and LA are case in point. As a Cali native I can tell you that SD is and always will be the little bro of the region. The Cornell grads seem to do well in LA, and would not seek out job opportunities satellite markets like SD. A GW grad's shot at an elite LA firm is not as strong and those that still desire to be in the Southland would seek other options. I wouldn't be stunned if Orange County hiring stats also showed a similiar advantage for GW.

In retrospect I guess the similarity isn't totally stunning, although Cornell's numbers are stronger, it is arguably the weakesst of the T14  with GW a very strong T20.





I just had to comment on this post because San Diego (aside from the unlikely Williams and Connolly hire) is my first choice in regards to where I want to practice. I know it's LA's "little brother", but I like it better.

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2006, 08:47:56 PM »
Prestigiouseo --

You are ridick. Stanford and Fordham do not equate with Cornell and GW. Cornell is scraping  to hang on to Tier 1, and GW is a very strong Tier 2. While Cornell may be perceived as "better" -- on the whole as evinced by US News composite rankings -- this does not necessarily hold true for many specialities and regional markets. If you removed your head from your posterior and looked at any of the salient data -- like government placement or citation stats for international law, the poster's stated professional and academic interests -- you would see there is very little difference between the two.

This does not mean that someone going to GW who aspires to enter the legal academic market would fare as well as someone at Cornell. (But, again, if you look at the data, Cornell's legal academic placement record is very, very poor for the T14 -- and many "lower" ranked schools per US News, like Texas, Minnesota, UCLA fare just as well or even better than Cornell. Again, you have to at least be aware of the data and account for the poster's interests. Realistically, there is little qualitative difference between the two -- as private sector placement data, academic quality rankings, and supreme court clerkship placement stats attest (in this last category, GW bests Cornell by a 7-to-1 margin for the last 16 years).

This does not mean there is no difference; this merely means that -- for the poster -- the difference is nominal at best. As long as the poster does well at GW, she'll be fine. As long as the poster doesn't hang herself in miserable Ithaca, she'll also be fine. No big worries either way.

As for the prior posts: granted, some Cornell students may "self-select" out of certain markets, and that's a viable line-of-reasoning to pursue. But for the love of Mammon, let's not get carried away about how superific Cornell is. It's not on par with virtually any of its T14 "low" peers -- Duke, Georgetown, Northwestern. "Better" than GW??? -- in some respects -- but certainly not all. Especially if you want to live in DC and work in govt....

Good luck polishing your Ezra Cornell statue, Prestigiouseo. 




MrRooney

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2006, 09:09:17 PM »
Prestigiouseo --

You are ridick. Stanford and Fordham do not equate with Cornell and GW. Cornell is scraping  to hang on to Tier 1, and GW is a very strong Tier 2. While Cornell may be perceived as "better" -- on the whole as evinced by US News composite rankings -- this does not necessarily hold true for many specialities and regional markets. If you removed your head from your posterior and looked at any of the salient data -- like government placement or citation stats for international law, the poster's stated professional and academic interests -- you would see there is very little difference between the two.

This does not mean that someone going to GW who aspires to enter the legal academic market would fare as well as someone at Cornell. (But, again, if you look at the data, Cornell's legal academic placement record is very, very poor for the T14 -- and many "lower" ranked schools per US News, like Texas, Minnesota, UCLA fare just as well or even better than Cornell. Again, you have to at least be aware of the data and account for the poster's interests. Realistically, there is little qualitative difference between the two -- as private sector placement data, academic quality rankings, and supreme court clerkship placement stats attest (in this last category, GW bests Cornell by a 7-to-1 margin for the last 16 years).

This does not mean there is no difference; this merely means that -- for the poster -- the difference is nominal at best. As long as the poster does well at GW, she'll be fine. As long as the poster doesn't hang herself in miserable Ithaca, she'll also be fine. No big worries either way.

As for the prior posts: granted, some Cornell students may "self-select" out of certain markets, and that's a viable line-of-reasoning to pursue. But for the love of Mammon, let's not get carried away about how superific Cornell is. It's not on par with virtually any of its T14 "low" peers -- Duke, Georgetown, Northwestern. "Better" than GW??? -- in some respects -- but certainly not all. Especially if you want to live in DC and work in govt....

Good luck polishing your Ezra Cornell statue, Prestigiouseo. 

Well said.

I guess decisions has already made his/her decision by now anyway so we'll just have to wait and see which school won out in the end.