Law School Discussion

In off Cornell WL

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2006, 05:11:22 AM »
I was responding more to the Cornell would be better for a few things comment. Cornell is better for most things, even DC Law.

Those absolute numbers of 65 and 26 cited ignore the fact that GW has 1600 studrents and Cornell has 580.

The NYC law anecdote was meant to illustrate that Cornell is no barrier to working for the government in a prime position, irregardless of class rank or previous summer experience.

DUE to the SO situation and the fact that the OP seems to love DC and hate Ithaca, GW is a fine option. Lets just not go overboard when comparing the two schools.

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2006, 08:23:00 AM »
Thank you to everyone who has chimed in so far and especially those that have provided relevant links and statistics.  This dialogue is extremely helpful to my decision process.

Here's the plan:  I'm going to visit Cornell (again) tomorrow morning, this time with my fiance.  I'll to ask some very specific questions about the J.D./L.L.M. program and check out the housing situation.

I have to decide by tomorrow afternoon.  I'm right on the fence at this point, but leaning ever so slightly toward GW.  I will post by Friday morning to let everyone know what the decision was.

I hope this update doesn't disrupt the GW vs. Cornell debate.   


MrRooney

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2006, 10:56:33 AM »
Visiting Cornell again with your fiance is a good idea. 

Something to keep in mind is that during this time of the year Cornell's campus is beautiful, but it's not nearly as nice for a very large portion of the school year when the weather is cold and dreary.  Also, there are a lot more outdoor activities going on in Ithaca and at Cornell while the weather is nice like it is now, but once winter hits there really is very little to do that's not school related.  Even though it gets cold in the winter in DC, there's still so much going on in the city that I personally think it would be a much more pleasant place to live.

Good luck with your visit.  Let us know how it goes.

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2006, 08:07:40 PM »
Celtigo,

I think you are overstating the case quite a bit. GW's full-time enrollment is 415 per class, and these students are by-and-large much stronger than the 100+ part-time enrollees (and they get the best jobs). Cornell's enrollment is about 190 -- so the class size difference is closer to 2-to-1. If you want to make some per capita adjustment for placement, fine, but that's not wholly practical: when it comes to finding a job, if there are twice or thrice as many graduates of one school in a market, that will certainly help one's chances of landing a position. I would take the 65 grads over the 26 anyday -- regardless of what schools they are associated with. Law School of the Pumpkin Truck -- I don't care. More grads in market = better chances of landing a job through a connection. Period.

Again, look at the placement data in Sullivan's update to Brian Leiter's study @ http://www.calvin.edu/admin/csr/students/sullivan/law/data.htm.

Total # of lawyers at national firms surveyed: Cornell 457, GW 814. For certain markets, Cornell has an decisive advantage: Los Angeles (Cornell 64, GW 49), Boston (Cornell 45, GW 27).  For other markets, GW has an equally decisive advantage: DC (GW 65, Cornell, 26), Philly (GW 98, Cornell 29), Miami (GW 93, Cornell 26), San Diego (GW 39, Cornell 18), etc. You need to look at the actual data. As well, for DC, GW's edge is over two-to-one.

Incidentally, for Chicago it's GW 77, Cornell 42. For NYC, it's Cornell 15, GW 14. That's pretty surprising given Cornell's proximity to NYC. Most would expect this to be much stronger for Cornell....

Cornell is simply not better for most things. Look at Leiter's study (a few years old) as a starting point.

For international law -- the poster's interest -- Cornell is ranked 9 and GW 10.
For constitutional law, both are tied at 17th.
For admin and environmental law, Cornell is 13th and GW 15th.

As a rough proxy for faculty quality, it's a useful overview. GW is very, very cloes to Cornell. For international law, it's basically a wash. Moreover, Cornell's class offerings look quite anemic to me....

As for govt jobs: you are crazy if you think Cornell has an edge based on an anecdote. Govt placement is what GW *does*. Cornell has a trickle of folks, that's it.

Personally, I am not biased one way or another, as I have no interest in GW or Cornell. But take a more careful look at the two -- for "Decisions'" sake.

Good idea to visit the Corn -- and best of luck in your decision.



Towelie

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Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2006, 08:29:38 PM »
I kind of disagree with goosecap2's argument here. Yes, having more alumni in an area can certainly be a good thing, however if more of your classmates are after jobs in the same market as you, it will only make it harder.

For instance, a firm I am really interested in is Williams and Connolly in DC for their First Amendment practice. It is an extremely selective firm (one of the most selective in the country) and I have little chance of getting hired there. However, because Penn only has 240-250 students per class and only like 10-20% end up practicing in DC, this means that, at the very most, only about 25-50 other people will be interviewing for the job at Penn. Georgetown was another top choice of mine and given the desire of almost everyone there to stay in DC, I feared that about 100-200 people would be, at the very least, interested in working there which would thus lower my chances.

I think a smaller class size is great for everything but course selection. GW is very large, not nearly as prestigious, and while it does have a very large alumni network, this should not be the basis of your decision as their are positives and negatives that go along with it.

Best of luck in making your decision!




Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2006, 08:52:52 PM »
what is the difference in ranking? 13 v. 19? aren't hte admitted LSAT #ers / GPA #ers virtually identical? i can't imagine there being a tremendous difference between the two - but who knows, i have been known to be wrong ;) (you're welcome for my very, very worthwhile, er, worhtless addition to this discussion)

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2006, 09:35:47 PM »
PS You'll also see from the National Law Journal 250 survey that GW lands in top 10 for law schools "most mentioned" (i.e., it's one of the schools most mentioned by 250 elite national law firms as where they draw their associates from). Cornell doesn't make the top 10. Sorry, Ezra!

1 Georgetown (114)
2 University of Virginia (97)
3 Harvard (96)
4 University of Michigan (93)
5 Duke (83)
6 New York University (80)
7 Columbia (76)
8 Northwestern (66)
9 George Washington (64)
10 University of Pennsylvania (63)
(The National Law Journal, November 2004)

Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2006, 09:47:30 PM »
Goose,
Let me peace through the data in a little bit when I get the chance. Just two quick things:
I should say I am somewhat suprised at some of the numbers cited, but here are two quick thoughts on why the Leiter survey may be misleading.

The study suffers from a fairly low sample size for any iindividual market with a fairly wide geographic breadth., kinda like the electoral college giving the little guys a disproportionate say in the end result. If this study went deeper into elite NYC firms for example (of which there are plenty not represented in the three above) Cornell's "minor" advantage would probably expand quite a bit.

Second GW seems to have a greater lead in smaller legal markets. Your SoCal citations of San Diego and LA are case in point. As a Cali native I can tell you that SD is and always will be the little bro of the region. The Cornell grads seem to do well in LA, and would not seek out job opportunities satellite markets like SD. A GW grad's shot at an elite LA firm is not as strong and those that still desire to be in the Southland would seek other options. I wouldn't be stunned if Orange County hiring stats also showed a similiar advantage for GW.

In retrospect I guess the similarity isn't totally stunning, although Cornell's numbers are stronger, it is arguably the weakesst of the T14  with GW a very strong T20.




Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2006, 09:49:45 PM »
PS You'll also see from the National Law Journal 250 survey that GW lands in top 10 for law schools "most mentioned" (i.e., it's one of the schools most mentioned by 250 elite national law firms as where they draw their associates from). Cornell doesn't make the top 10. Sorry, Ezra!

1 Georgetown (114)
2 University of Virginia (97)
3 Harvard (96)
4 University of Michigan (93)
5 Duke (83)
6 New York University (80)
7 Columbia (76)
8 Northwestern (66)
9 George Washington (64)
10 University of Pennsylvania (63)
(The National Law Journal, November 2004)


Goose my man that seesm to reflect class size more than anything else. No Stanford, Yale or Chicago either. In fact other than Duke, it seems all those schools are significanlty larger than the 'nell.

Towelie

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Re: In off Cornell WL
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2006, 10:54:06 PM »
Goose,
Let me peace through the data in a little bit when I get the chance. Just two quick things:
I should say I am somewhat suprised at some of the numbers cited, but here are two quick thoughts on why the Leiter survey may be misleading.

The study suffers from a fairly low sample size for any iindividual market with a fairly wide geographic breadth., kinda like the electoral college giving the little guys a disproportionate say in the end result. If this study went deeper into elite NYC firms for example (of which there are plenty not represented in the three above) Cornell's "minor" advantage would probably expand quite a bit.

Second GW seems to have a greater lead in smaller legal markets. Your SoCal citations of San Diego and LA are case in point. As a Cali native I can tell you that SD is and always will be the little bro of the region. The Cornell grads seem to do well in LA, and would not seek out job opportunities satellite markets like SD. A GW grad's shot at an elite LA firm is not as strong and those that still desire to be in the Southland would seek other options. I wouldn't be stunned if Orange County hiring stats also showed a similiar advantage for GW.

In retrospect I guess the similarity isn't totally stunning, although Cornell's numbers are stronger, it is arguably the weakesst of the T14  with GW a very strong T20.





I just had to comment on this post because San Diego (aside from the unlikely Williams and Connolly hire) is my first choice in regards to where I want to practice. I know it's LA's "little brother", but I like it better.