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Author Topic: Stand up for the war  (Read 8961 times)

jgruber

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #100 on: August 17, 2004, 02:09:37 PM »
Army is the only way to go.  ;D

My experience was similar.  Most service men and women came from lower or middle class families and saw the military as a way to make a living.  One guy was in because the judge said "the army or prison."  That tells you something.

Tim, were your friends college graduates who ended up being officers in the military?  The vast majority of military members did come from middle / lower middle / poor class.  There are many members of the military who are on food stamps and some even on welfare.  There are of course exceptions who were financially well-off before their military service; however, they are they exception.

In addition, on a personal note could you please not generalize all military members as "Army"?  I know that wasn't your intentions; however, it really drives me nuts when people identify all military members as Army members.


All feelings about the rightness or wrongness of the war aside, it's obvious to me that an unduly high percentage of soldiers are lower-middle class to poor. 

I don't know if that's true.  I haven't ever seen statistics to support that point, only assertions.  It very well may be true, but I'd like to see a break-down of income and parents income at time of enlistment in the army vs. a general breakdown of income in the general population.  In my admittedly limited experience, most of the people I knew who went into the military were middle/upper middle class.

jgruber

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2004, 02:12:07 PM »
How does that cheapen the sacrifice?

Pointing out that the sacrifice may not have been necessary does not cheapen the sacrifice and does not call the dead into dishonor.

Sacrificing these people in questionable wars dishonors them, not questioning the war.  I did not cheapen their sacrifice.  I have been personally hit by the cost of war, so I know better.

Kind of like the "Nobody died when Clinton lied" post, Jeffjoe.  I made a comment then about it.


GentleTim

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2004, 02:12:19 PM »
Tim, were your friends college graduates who ended up being officers in the military?  The vast majority of military members did come from middle / lower middle / poor class.  There are many members of the military who are on food stamps and some even on welfare.  There are of course exceptions who were financially well-off before their military service; however, they are they exception.

Not all of them, but some.  The remainder were those from my HS who enlisted did so because they weren't interested in College.  They were mostly middle class.

In addition, on a personal note could you please not generalize all military members as "Army"?  I know that wasn't your intentions; however, it really drives me nuts when people identify all military members as Army members.

Sorry, meant "military."


All feelings about the rightness or wrongness of the war aside, it's obvious to me that an unduly high percentage of soldiers are lower-middle class to poor.  

I don't know if that's true.  I haven't ever seen statistics to support that point, only assertions.  It very well may be true, but I'd like to see a break-down of income and parents income at time of enlistment in the army vs. a general breakdown of income in the general population.  In my admittedly limited experience, most of the people I knew who went into the military were middle/upper middle class.
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The ZAPINATOR

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2004, 02:13:18 PM »
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Section Eight

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2004, 02:14:47 PM »
It is not the actual questioning of the war that is in question here; it is the use of dead military members or even live ones to sensitize the populace towards protesting the war.

I have no problem with anybody questioning the war; however, it disgusts me to use military casualties of war (who willingly chose to serve) as a means to protest the war.

How does that cheapen the sacrifice?

Pointing out that the sacrifice may not have been necessary does not cheapen the sacrifice and does not call the dead into dishonor.

Sacrificing these people in questionable wars dishonors them, not questioning the war.  I did not cheapen their sacrifice.  I have been personally hit by the cost of war, so I know better.

Kind of like the "Nobody died when Clinton lied" post, Jeffjoe.  I made a comment then about it.


jgruber

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2004, 02:28:18 PM »
I don't get it.  Military and civilian leaders refer often to those who sacrificed to support the war.

I am not exploiting the dead to questio n the war.  If I refer to them, I mention to highlight the high cost of war. 


If i've cheaply exploited the dead, I wish someone would point it out.

It is not the actual questioning of the war that is in question here; it is the use of dead military members or even live ones to sensitize the populace towards protesting the war.

I have no problem with anybody questioning the war; however, it disgusts me to use military casualties of war (who willingly chose to serve) as a means to protest the war.

How does that cheapen the sacrifice?

Pointing out that the sacrifice may not have been necessary does not cheapen the sacrifice and does not call the dead into dishonor.

Sacrificing these people in questionable wars dishonors them, not questioning the war.  I did not cheapen their sacrifice.  I have been personally hit by the cost of war, so I know better.

Kind of like the "Nobody died when Clinton lied" post, Jeffjoe.  I made a comment then about it.


Section Eight

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #106 on: August 17, 2004, 02:31:28 PM »
I wasn't speaking of you in particular.  I was saying there are a great deal of people, like the guy who made the picture of President Bush with pictures of dead military members, who fit this image.

I don't get it.  Military and civilian leaders refer often to those who sacrificed to support the war.

I am not exploiting the dead to questio n the war.  If I refer to them, I mention to highlight the high cost of war. 


If i've cheaply exploited the dead, I wish someone would point it out.

It is not the actual questioning of the war that is in question here; it is the use of dead military members or even live ones to sensitize the populace towards protesting the war.

I have no problem with anybody questioning the war; however, it disgusts me to use military casualties of war (who willingly chose to serve) as a means to protest the war.

How does that cheapen the sacrifice?

Pointing out that the sacrifice may not have been necessary does not cheapen the sacrifice and does not call the dead into dishonor.

Sacrificing these people in questionable wars dishonors them, not questioning the war.  I did not cheapen their sacrifice.  I have been personally hit by the cost of war, so I know better.

Kind of like the "Nobody died when Clinton lied" post, Jeffjoe.  I made a comment then about it.


jgruber

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #107 on: August 17, 2004, 02:33:49 PM »
does that picture cheapen their sacridfice?  It strongly ties their sacrifice to dubya.  if that is a dishonor where does the dishonor come from?

I'm pretty sure you don't mean that being associated with dubya is dishonorable.

I wasn't speaking of you in particular.  I was saying there are a great deal of people, like the guy who made the picture of President Bush with pictures of dead military members, who fit this image.



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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #108 on: August 17, 2004, 02:57:01 PM »
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jgruber

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Re: Stand up for the war
« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2004, 03:08:40 PM »
Mr. Bush is the president and C in C.  Through his emphatic actions, we went to war.

You seem to be trying to disassociate him from the war.  Why?


It's dishonorable to tie them to Dubya instead of to tie them to America.  They died for America, for their friends and relatives, not for George Bush.  They died to protect us from another calamity on the scale of 9/11.  They gave their lives to keep us safe.  The antiwar crowd just wants to blame everything on Dubya all the time.  But not so fast.  If you enjoy breathing and enjoy the liberties America offers, you're enjoying more than many people around the world.  And I don't want to cheapen the deaths of 9/11 victims so I won't go there, except to say that if it weren't for 9/11 most of our men in uniform wouldn't be fighting for their country right now.  I believe that.  I think the terrorists brought the fight to our doors, and our eyes were opened to the anti-American philosophy in the Middle East that was leading us down a path of becoming a target.  Usually people are talking about sports when they say the best defense is a strong offense, but I think it holds true in this case.

ZAP

does that picture cheapen their sacridfice?  It strongly ties their sacrifice to dubya.  if that is a dishonor where does the dishonor come from?

I'm pretty sure you don't mean that being associated with dubya is dishonorable.

I wasn't speaking of you in particular.  I was saying there are a great deal of people, like the guy who made the picture of President Bush with pictures of dead military members, who fit this image.