Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...

[The ZAPINATOR]

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[Bman]

I stand by what I've said. If you were really open-minded, we would occasionally see quotes doubting or expressing skepticism about certain allegations against the Republicans. This was a classic test case. ZERO evidence and yet you still offered no words to the effect that this was unproven speculation.

[Bman]

"Why should the burden be on anyone?"

I think this is VERY problematic philosophically and practically. if we decide that any allegation should be taken seriously with no burden of evidentiary credibility to overcome before lending it credence, than it will be easy to smear anyone, because it's almost always impossible to prove a negative. This is a good example. Even if the police officers were engaged in an absolutely legitimate investigation and were doing nothing wrong, they can't PROVE that they aren't secretly conspiring to disenfranchise black floridians. That's why we should ask conspiracy-mongers to produce some evidence of wrong-doing before we take them seriously. What if I made the allegation that Kerry was planning to institute a police-state if elected? Sounds preposterous right. But you can't prove that it isn't true! Therefore, the only open-minded position, according to your definition, is scrupulous neutrality even if no evidence is ever produced.

[jgruber]

I've said everything I can say.  I have not decided on this issue one way or the other.

If you can't believe me, there's nothing I can or will do about it.

[jgruber]

I will say one more thing.  I have thrown around a lot of ideas, opinions etc here.

But I have yet to lie and I'm offended that I have been accused of a lie.

[Bman]

Oh, and one more philosophical point:

The guiding principle of our criminal justice system is "innocent until proven guilty." What this means, in essence, is that a jury is supposed to assume innocence and only convict thereafter if evidence is presented that, in their minds, proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So, jurors have a presumption of innocence and yet judges and lawyers all claim they are looking for "open-minded" jurors. This is not a contradiction of terms. A person can assume, in the absence of any evidence, that an allegation is untrue and yet still be willing to change their mind if evidence is presented. Your equation of open-mindedness with neutrality towards every proposed allegation, credible or not, is a definition you are entitled to. But it is not what most people associate with the term nor should they.

[Bman]

what would that be?

I will say one more thing.  I have thrown around a lot of ideas, opinions etc here.

But I have yet to lie and I'm offended that I have been accused of a lie.

[jgruber]

I said I had not made up my mind on this issue.

I was told by two people that I was wrong.  That is calling me a liar. 

There's only one person who knows if what's in my mind.  If you say I have made up my mind you are saying I am lying to you.

what would that be?

I will say one more thing.  I have thrown around a lot of ideas, opinions etc here.

But I have yet to lie and I'm offended that I have been accused of a lie.

[The ZAPINATOR]

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[Bman]

Whatever. you can frame it that way if you want. A few days ago we had a debate on detainees' rights and you mocked me, characterizing me as a shill for the White House who simply accepted their arguments without any thought or critial analysis (despite the fact that I made clear that I did not accept the Bush Administration's arguments in their entirety). You regularly call people who disagree with you close-minded. My point was that in almost four thousand posts, I can't find a single one in which you took it upon yourself to point out, without prodding from someone else, that an allegation was unproven or had essentially no evidence to support it. You responded to Zap's first post by calling him predictable (as opposed to you, where we never know what side you're going to take). Sometimes the tone around here can be a little degrading, but you've engaged in the exact same behavior so this, 'holier than thou' how dare you call me a liar routine is a bit too much to take.