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Author Topic: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...  (Read 5661 times)

Bman

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2004, 02:27:12 PM »
Oh, and one more question: Suppose the voter fraud allegation was a legitimate one. For those of you who are filled with righteous indignation over this story, please tell us; should the police just not investigate this matter for fear of offending politically correct liberals?

jgruber

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2004, 02:28:15 PM »
huh?

Oh, and one more question: Suppose the voter fraud allegation was a legitimate one. For those of you who are filled with righteous indignation over this story, please tell us; should the police just not investigate this matter for fear of offending politically correct liberals?

Bman

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2004, 02:30:08 PM »
Jeffjoe, I don't know if this is a joke or not, and the last thing I want to do is get into a bitter argument, but are you kidding? Reread this thread. You, Greeneqs and everyone else on the other side have not kept an "open mind." You completely believe that the Florida Police is conspiring to intimidate blacks away from the polls, despite the fact that this column cited no actual evidence that the investigation was improper. Perhaps Zap. and I are predisposed not to believe these kinds of stories (I would argue that we simply require some minimal amount of evidence before we start lending them credence) But the close-mindedness on this board is widely varied and not all on the right/

Why won't you just accept that you should keep an open mind?

It's always possible that someone's doing something wrong at any given moment.  Yet, why automatically assume the worst?  When there's no evidence, why float meaningless possibilities?  I mean, I could say that Jeffjoe's a serial killer.  You could ask me why I think that.  I'd then say, because it's possible.  Just keep an open mind.  It's possible that he is and it's possible that he's not.  Sure, it's technically possible.  But without any proof, why would I even go there in the first place?  What's the point?  It's just annoying.  Why should I assume that Jeffjoe's a serial killer when there's no evidence to indicate that? 

The reason I take issue with your theories is that they come from the same guy who spends his time making up these kinds of threads:

Rummie strikes again. Does it make a difference?
Is Bush, Inc.trying to destroy the judiciary?
Dubya flip flopping
Kerry flip flopping
Johnson - Bush little change in 40 years
No one died when Clinton lied...
Pentagon says foreign detainees have no right to lawyers
Are terrorists playing us?
Red letter days in American politics
Bush always looking for new ways to attack America
Who is the terrorist?
Town is full of thieves
Bush afraid of the courts?
Happy Birthday American Censorship
Bush says his judicial appointments are being blocked by Democrats
Left-wing NYT poll says more Americans say Iraq was a mistake
Dubya and the NAACP
The Common Plan to Violate the Geneva Conventions
LAWLESSNESS IN IRAQ AND THE FAILURE OF UNILATERALISM
Why are we still in Iraq?e
(and many more... you get the point)

Constant negativity.  Jeffjoe, it's not healthy for you and I don't know that it's necessarily helpful for others.  If there's a hot-button issue, sure, get some discussion going.  But the constant lens of negativity, regardless of the topic, tells me somehow you're not a very happy person.  Maybe I'm off base with that, but you strike me as a paranoid grump more than as an independent thinker.  I don't mean that as a personal insult, but I'm calling it as I see it.  I mean, my dad can be a paranoid grump at times too and I love him regardless, but that doesn't mean its good for your mental health to look at everything negatively.  And I don't think it brings you one iota closer to the truth 95% of the time... it just misleads you in a different direction.

ZAP

Bman

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2004, 02:32:10 PM »
I'll make this more clear. Nothing in this article cites any evidence that the purported reason for questioning blacks in Orlando- a voter fraud allegation- is illegitimate. If- and I realize for many of you, this is an impossible claim to stomach- there really was voter fraud, should the police simply ignore it so that they don't offend people who see a plan to disenfranchise minorities around every corner?
huh?

Oh, and one more question: Suppose the voter fraud allegation was a legitimate one. For those of you who are filled with righteous indignation over this story, please tell us; should the police just not investigate this matter for fear of offending politically correct liberals?

Bman

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2004, 02:34:29 PM »
"it just misleads you in a different direction. "

Well put. Believing every conspiracy theory does not make you open minded. It is just as close-minded as the person who disbelieves them all

jgruber

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2004, 02:35:32 PM »
I didn't say I believe it but there is plenty of history to back up a cynical viewpoint.

The Republican Party questionable activity

Watergate
Irangate
Campaign managers and brothers counting votes


You could also list questionable activities by Democrats, like the Tonkin Gulf.

That only proves my point. 


I am ready to believe this story.

I am also ready to believe it is false.

Now what am I supposed to do besides that to show I'm open minded?


Jeffjoe, I don't know if this is a joke or not, and the last thing I want to do is get into a bitter argument, but are you kidding? Reread this thread. You, Greeneqs and everyone else on the other side have not kept an "open mind." You completely believe that the Florida Police is conspiring to intimidate blacks away from the polls, despite the fact that this column cited no actual evidence that the investigation was improper. Perhaps Zap. and I are predisposed not to believe these kinds of stories (I would argue that we simply require some minimal amount of evidence before we start lending them credence) But the close-mindedness on this board is widely varied and not all on the right/


The ZAPINATOR

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2004, 02:38:18 PM »
edit

Bman

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2004, 02:39:41 PM »
What can you do to show you're open-minded? Well, not to be too personal, but you have several thousand posts. I don't have time to archive through all of them, but if I did, how many posts do you think I would see that said something like "Let's not jump to conclusions" or "there's not a scintilla of evidence to show that there was anything improper here, though there still could be." This thread is a classic example. You haven't said that you believe it directly, I don't think. But Greeneqs has and you say nothing to soften his view. but as soon as a skeptical post comes along, you immediately jump down their throat and tell them to have an open mind. how about telling some of the LEFTISTS who believe everything they hear that's bad about Bush to keep an open mind.
I didn't say I believe it but there is plenty of history to back up a cynical viewpoint.

The Republican Party questionable activity

Watergate
Irangate
Campaign managers and brothers counting votes


You could also list questionable activities by Democrats, like the Tonkin Gulf.

That only proves my point. 


I am ready to believe this story.

I am also ready to believe it is false.

Now what am I supposed to do besides that to show I'm open minded?


Jeffjoe, I don't know if this is a joke or not, and the last thing I want to do is get into a bitter argument, but are you kidding? Reread this thread. You, Greeneqs and everyone else on the other side have not kept an "open mind." You completely believe that the Florida Police is conspiring to intimidate blacks away from the polls, despite the fact that this column cited no actual evidence that the investigation was improper. Perhaps Zap. and I are predisposed not to believe these kinds of stories (I would argue that we simply require some minimal amount of evidence before we start lending them credence) But the close-mindedness on this board is widely varied and not all on the right/


jgruber

  • Guest
Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2004, 02:44:11 PM »
Why should the burden be on anyone?

I am open to either idea and you tell me I'm closed minded.

I have not decided if the story is true or false and I'm closed minded.


But you're open minded because you won't even accept the possiblity until it is proven?

I've made my point and I have not made up my mind.

If you want to believe I'm closed minded because I have not made up  my mind, then I can't stop you.  Obviously.


and since Bman beat me to my post I'll include an answer for him here.

Now who's closed minded?  I have said and will say it again that I am willing to believe that this story could be true or could be false.  I am open to both possiblities.


Then you tell me that I'm closed minded on this particular issue because of my opinions on other issues.  You won't acknowledge the possibility that I may be open minded on this issue.

Then you throw in loaded terms like jumping down throats and leftists.

I am not convinced either way on this story!  Please pay attention.  I have not made up my mind on this story.  I am waiting to hear evidence either way.

Geez.
Because for you, open mind is a code word.  It's "so open" its closed.  I think I strike a fair compromise... burden of proof falls on the accuser.  If there's no proof, there's no reason to pan for guilt.  If there's no reason to pan for guilt, there should be no allegations or innuendo.  Simple as that.   

ZAP


Bman

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Re: Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2004, 02:46:17 PM »
If nothing else, though, this column shows that Herbert is pretty resourceful, I can't believe he got a whole piece out of this story. The entire story here is this....Florida law enforcement is questioning a few dozen African-Americans with regard to a voter fraud allegation. That's it. If these were white voters, it would not have even made the news. Through this entire column, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. Each sentence, I thought, would be the one that showed some evidence of malfeasance...maybe it would show that the investigation was a bogus pretext or that the voters had certainly nothing to share. But nope. Cops questioning African-Americans. That's it. It's pretty pathetic that this is all it takes to get some people's minds working in overdrive. I wait for the evidence. If this really is a scandal, let's see it.