Shameful and Frightening: GOP takes measures to supress Black Vote...

[Bman]

Open-minded has no connection to liar because it is a subjective assessment. You could call yourself open-minded and, if I disagree, that doesn't mean that I think you were intentionally perpetuating a falsehood, it just means that I don't think your self-assessment is accurate.

[jgruber]

I don't believe I called you a liar. I pointed out how a truly open-minded person might behave in hearing this accusation and suggested that you fall short of this ideal. But lying? I don't think I ever said that (I haven't rechecked the thread, so if I did, I apologize) nor did I imply it.

when i said i had not made up my mind either way, you tried to prove that I was not.  if you were right in your assertion, then i would have to be a liar.


eight, you can call me that.  the only thing that bothers me is being called a liar.

[The ZAPINATOR]

edit

[nathanielmark]

and you must admit, the "shameful and frightening" was a nice touch on my part...

Open-minded has no connection to liar because it is a subjective assessment. You could call yourself open-minded and, if I disagree, that doesn't mean that I think you were intentionally perpetuating a falsehood, it just means that I don't think your self-assessment is accurate.

[Bman]

These meta-debates are starting to go too far.....

I don't think that is correct. It was Zap, not me, who posted your original postings and insinuated that it wasn't entirely accurate to say that you had not made up your mind. But even he did not accuse you of lying. He just said that the posts said something about your assumption level (which they do. Both you and I have the same broad position; it could be true and it could not be true. But partisanship clearly played a role in both of our replies. I stressed that it was unproven and you stressed other things). The only thing I said was that you weren't open-minded according to what I believe the term to mean; not just neutrality, but occasionally stressing aspects of the other side....lack of evidence, etc. You're right. No one likes being called a liar. But people don't like being accused of doing things that they didn't do either and I think you're doing that to me.

I don't believe I called you a liar. I pointed out how a truly open-minded person might behave in hearing this accusation and suggested that you fall short of this ideal. But lying? I don't think I ever said that (I haven't rechecked the thread, so if I did, I apologize) nor did I imply it.

when i said i had not made up my mind either way, you tried to prove that I was not.  if you were right in your assertion, then i would have to be a liar.


eight, you can call me that.  the only thing that bothers me is being called a liar.

[Bman]

Indeed 

and you must admit, the "shameful and frightening" was a nice touch on my part...

Open-minded has no connection to liar because it is a subjective assessment. You could call yourself open-minded and, if I disagree, that doesn't mean that I think you were intentionally perpetuating a falsehood, it just means that I don't think your self-assessment is accurate.

[jgruber]

If I say that I have not decided whether the story is true or not, then I am by defnition open to either option and therefore open minded on the issue.

You both said that I was not open minded

not open minded = made up my mind = not telling the truth

jeffjoe, you're the first and only one to use the word liar.  bman didn't say it, I didnt say it.  I did say that our perspectives were so different that while you assert you're open-minded (and i'm talking in general, not in regards to just this issue) I assert otherwise.  That's far different from saying you're intentionally lying to us.  And just to emphasize, I'm talking about Jeffjoe in general, not Jeffjoe as regards this issue.  I want to be absolutely clear about that. 

But I may as well impugn your integrity, since you impugn my ability to think for myself when I do not come to your conclusions.  Reminds me of Marilyn Manson, actually.  Teaching all the little sheep to think for themselves.  My point in this is that while it may not be ok for anyone to impugn your integrity, it's equally wrong for you to spend your time in your position of assumed superiority, telling everyone how closed-minded they are because they won't just jump on any bandwagon when there's no evidence.  Thread titles like "It's time to admit the truth about Dubya" say it all... you think you're right, and you want everyone else to agree with you.  When they don't, you'll spend a lot of time criticizing them for refusing to buy what they see as conspiracy-mongering and baseless claims. 

All me and Bman are saying (and this is what I've been saying all along) is show me the hard evidence for your point of view... otherwise I have no reason to give it the time of day.  And I stand by that.  There is a burden of proof, and it's on the accuser.  That in no way means anyone here is calling you a liar. 

ZAP

[Bman]

"not open minded = made up my mind = not telling the truth"

Sorry but I don't think this sort of simplistic deduction works in this case. I've made clear in all my posts that I think open-minded is a subjective evaluation on which people can differ. Lying isn't. It means saying something that you know is not true. I believe that you sincerely think that you are open-minded, which negates any attempt to equate it with lying.

[jgruber]

then i'll accept that, but i disagree.

I never even read this article because I suspected it was slanted.

I am willing to hear evidence on either side and make up my mind when all the news is in.

I don't think you and zap can say the same.  you have already said that you won't even consider the possiblity of its truth without proof.  that is not open minded.

"not open minded = made up my mind = not telling the truth"

Sorry but I don't think this sort of simplistic deduction works in this case. I've made clear in all my posts that I think open-minded is a subjective evaluation on which people can differ. Lying isn't. It means saying something that you know is not true. I believe that you sincerely think that you are open-minded, which negates any attempt to equate it with lying.

[Bman]

Let's put this another way. Suppose I argued that I, Bman, am a smart person. Suppose you were then to respond that I was not a smart person. It does not then follow that you believed I was intentionally lying. A person who is not smart could very well believe that they are smart, just as a person who is not open-minded could think that they are.