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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2006, 02:40:21 AM »


But think about it! If you are a Lebanese politician and you say Hezbollah is horrible and that it isn't Israel's fault...while Israel is bombing your country...how do you think you will look? Israel is swaying people who are against Hezbollah to at least sympathize with them. 

You may well be right but that isn't necessarily a determinative factor in whether or not Israel is responding the right way.  Just based on what I've read and the actions Israel has taken already I think they intend to destroy Hezbollah completely at this point.  I'm sure they'll be a surgical about it as possible but innocent people are going to get caught in the middle.  That's a hard thing but its reality.  You can't boo Israel to death over it; its not their fault.  They left Lebanon and they gave up the Gaza strip.  But that was not enough and nothing will be enough, clearly.  Only the complete annihilation of Israel is enough for these extremist militant groups.

The support for Hezbollah runs deep.  Iran stands in the backdrop of all of this, don't forget.

 

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2006, 02:44:10 AM »
  You say Israel will win always and forever.  You think they should occupy Lebanon? Do you really think that is the best option for Israel? To occupy more land that isn't theirs?

Now call me crazy, but I don't think Israel enjoys occupying the land of others.  It isn't in their interest...there are better solutions. 


They gave back Gaza already.  And from Gaza; rockets.  They're dragging Israel back in.  Israel is going to have to occupy more land re Gaza just to have a buffer zone so their cities aren't constantly under missile fire.

jballer

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2006, 02:46:48 AM »
I agree with you AJ.  

I hope Israel does destroy Hezbollah...I don't see it happening.  The best solution would be to help enforce UN SC resolution 1559.  There are many ways to do that without destroying Lebanon.  You could make the Sinoira government strong and provide incentives to send Hezbollah back to Iran.  You could help make the Lebanese Shiia feel that they are not underrepresented and therefore have to side with Hezbollah.    

But think for a second on what you said.  Israel got out of Lebanon.  You say it as if Israel did Lebanon a favor.  They were there for 18 years in an illegal occupation that, coupled with the Lebanese civil war, devastated the country.  

I agree that Iran is the major problem in this situation.  Therefore bombing Lebanon and weakening their democratic government that is a friend of the United States, is not going to accomplish anything.  You can kill 1000 Jihadists and 5000 will step in their place.  

If you think Lebanon's government is anti-west then you are wrong and need to take a look at the country's history with the United States.  They are friends.  There is a strong Lebanese-American population.  Just look a week or so back and see that Lebanon detained that man accused in the tunnel bombings that you were talking about Trollik.

There are other solutions to getting rid of Hezbollah instead of direct force. They just haven't been implemented. Death only creates more death.  I don't think that is in Israel's or Lebanon's interst.  Only Iran and Syria because they are the governments that are truly anti-American and anti-Israeli.    

jballer

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2006, 02:47:38 AM »
I'm not talking about Gaza here.  I know they are connected but it is still a MUCH different situation and I know you know that. 

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2006, 02:56:14 AM »



If you think Lebanon's government is anti-west then you are wrong and need to take a look at the country's history with the United States.  They are friends.  There is a strong Lebanese-American population.


I realize the factious militant groups causing the problems; that's why I continue to refer to Hezbollah specifically and in other posts, Hamas and the major factor Iran which is obviously no small group.  But the Lebanese government is somewhat complicit allowing Hezbollah to have 14 seats.  But that's not the issue and their hands are somewhat tied in their own country.  I understand that.

Iran is gearing up with Nukes.  Its an absolute lie coming out of that country that they intend only to have them for peace purposes. If we believe it we're the biggest fools since the apologists and appeasers that let WWII happen.  Just based on what that the psychopath Ahmadinejad has said already I think there can be little doubt he will ultimately use nuclear weapons on Israel if he gets them.  He has absolutely declared genocide against Jews. 

jballer

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2006, 03:04:25 AM »
I wouldn't use the world complacent.  Those 14 out of the 128 seats were voted on by teh Shiia population that is poorly represented.  The government can't get rid of them or disarm them because Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army.  People don't seem to understand this.  If the Lebanese Army faced Hezbollah..Lebanon would lose.  They need help in disarming the group.  Israel has used force to disarm them which should have been a last option.  Unfortunately, everyone (including Lebanon and the US) is to blame for not staying active on disarming the group.  What I am saying is, Israel should not continue bombing Lebanon because nothing will be achieved.  I know you would be surprised to hear this, but I would say a strong majority of Lebanese people (in Lebanon and around the world) are in favor of Israel getting rid of Hezbollah.  However, if they expand the war to destroy all of Lebanon, including the pro-US government, it is against the interest of Israel, the US, and Lebanon and only plays into the hands of Islamic militants like Syria and Iran. 

And in regards to your view in Iran, I agree completely.  Action should be taken against Iran then.  They are the only real significant threat to Israel. They should not be allowed to develop a nuke.  I forsee Israel attacking Syria and this developing into a greater war.  I hope there is another way, and I pray for peace, but that's what I see happening. 

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2006, 03:16:30 AM »
I wouldn't use the world complacent.  Those 14 out of the 128 seats were voted on by teh Shiia population that is poorly represented.  The government can't get rid of them or disarm them because Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army.  People don't seem to understand this.  If the Lebanese Army faced Hezbollah..Lebanon would lose.  They need help in disarming the group.  Israel has used force to disarm them which should have been a last option.  Unfortunately, everyone (including Lebanon and the US) is to blame for not staying active on disarming the group.  What I am saying is, Israel should not continue bombing Lebanon because nothing will be achieved.  I know you would be surprised to hear this, but I would say a strong majority of Lebanese people (in Lebanon and around the world) are in favor of Israel getting rid of Hezbollah.  However, if they expand the war to destroy all of Lebanon, including the pro-US government, it is against the interest of Israel, the US, and Lebanon and only plays into the hands of Islamic militants like Syria and Iran. 

And in regards to your view in Iran, I agree completely.  Action should be taken against Iran then.  They are the only real significant threat to Israel. They should not be allowed to develop a nuke.  I forsee Israel attacking Syria and this developing into a greater war.  I hope there is another way, and I pray for peace, but that's what I see happening. 

Complicit is the word I meant to use initially.  Hezbollah is Shiia itself.  I believe you that the majority of Lebanese are not against Israel (or the west for that matter) and have not teamed up against Israel with Hezbollah.  But I think it would be hasty to assume Israel intends to do more than eliminate Hezbollah at this point.  I don't interpret their acts as anything more than taking militarily calculated actions to shut down Hezbollah's ability to gather around the border and fire into Israel.  They can't let them get supplies into the boarder area and or to get out of Lebanon if they intend to destroy them.  They have to keep them fenced in.  That's why they took out the airport.  But this is just one person's opinion and interpretation--mine.

On my point earlier about bias in the media here, CNN is my least favorite.  I read on their little explanation of Hezbollah that it is nothing more than a few hundred militants and a few thousand supporters.  That's obviously bogus.  Hezbollah has become powerful like you say because no one has stepped in to cut them off.  They have a backing in the government of Iran and Syria although Syria claims they don't support them militarily.

jballer

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2006, 03:28:15 AM »
Come on Trollik, I agree with what most of what your saying but how were the Lebanese supposed to kick Hezbollah out? You have to realize how fractured their society is.  That goes back from their creation as a state.  Lebanon was created by the French as a protective enclave for Christians.  Their whole Consociational government got messed up because of changing demographics and civil war broke out.  They JUST kicked Syria out with the help of the international community.  They were trying to kick Hezbollah out as well...there has been movements.  Trust me, Hezbollah are not Lebanese.  They don't give a sh*t about Lebanese.  Lebanon is a proud country with a rich history.  Their flag is all over their country.  In Hezbollah controlled areas, that stupid yellow flag with a gun on it is spread out everywhere.  They don't like Lebanon because it is pro-west and because they are secular.  Lebanon needed help kicking Hezbollah out...they didn't get it and so Israel took action into their own hands.  I don't hate them for it but they should exercise a lot of restraint and I believe they have been doing a relatively decent job so far despite my disagreements with bombing the airport and the roads.  (this only hurts Lebanese tourism which hurts Lebanon which hurts Israel..see other posts). 

AJ I agree that they tried to fence Hezbollah in.  But at the same time, they did it to piss off Lebanon as a way of saying you should have gotten rid of them.  Now we're holding you responsible. I understand their rationale, I just disagree with it. 

And CNN isn't the best news source but its not horrible.  All the American stations are really sketch about Middle East coverage.  In my opinion, they are slightly biased towards Israel because one the Jewish population in America and their class status and two because America is more likely to empathize with Israel in this and most circumstances. (I don't want to have a debate about this because I know it could easily turn into that). I mean America in general isn't really cognizant about what has really been happening in Lebanon in the first place.  It has been an a tumultous couple of years since Hariri's assassination, yet the Lebanese people have perserved...until now.  That is why so many people are mad at Israel and mad at Hezbollah. 

By the way, another piece of evidence that shows Lebanon and its people are pawns of HEzbollah and Iran....Iran said they will attack Israel if Israel attacks Syria... I wonder why Lebanon was not afforded such protection? Because they don't give a crap about Lebanon because Iran and Lebanon have about as different ideologies and governments between any two Middle Eastern states. 

jballer

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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2006, 03:39:15 AM »
By the way, an interesting article that somewhat gives credibility to my whole tourist argument. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060713/wl_mideast_afp/mideastunrestlebanon;_ylt=Am4wBsbpPpAhmFweCShikzes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

People will get pissed...and if Hezbollah is able to...they will manipulate that anger towards Israel.  Something that neither Israel nor Lebanon want. 


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Re: Olmert May Be Alright After All: All-Out War Accepted
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2006, 03:39:48 AM »


By the way, another piece of evidence that shows Lebanon and its people are pawns of HEzbollah and Iran....Iran said they will attack Israel if Israel attacks Syria... I wonder why Lebanon was not afforded such protection? Because they don't give a crap about Lebanon because Iran and Lebanon have about as different ideologies and governments between any two Middle Eastern states. 

Exactly.  Of course Iran is going to speak up and tell Israel not to attack Syria.  The ideology of Iran is shared by Hezbollah and Syria--not Lebanon.  Hezbollah is the leach or the snake in the back yard.  They're like a syringe used to pump ideologies of religious intolerance and war into Lebanon.  Iran wants that element in place.  It can't step into Lebanon and defend Hezbollah but it can give these bold warnings like it has been to Israel.