Law School Discussion

Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions

Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #210 on: May 14, 2008, 02:29:18 PM »
I apologize.  The actual numbers are in the WSJ article.  The 1 : 3 ratio is right on though, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics own numbers.  Students can network all they want, but if there are jobs for only a third of them, two thirds of them won't get jobs no matter how much they network. 

Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #211 on: May 14, 2008, 02:33:06 PM »
From the Bureau of Labor Statistics.  DON'T RELY ON THE STATISTICS AND LITERATURE PUT OUT BY LAW SCHOOLS.  As the WSJ article illustrates, law schools' numbers are highly distorted. 

"Job prospects. Competition for job openings should continue to be keen because of the large number of students graduating from law school each year. Graduates with superior academic records from highly regarded law schools will have the best job opportunities. Perhaps as a result of competition for attorney positions, lawyers are increasingly finding work in less traditional areas for which legal training is an asset, but not normally a requirement—for example, administrative, managerial, and business positions in banks, insurance firms, real estate companies, government agencies, and other organizations. Employment opportunities are expected to continue to arise in these organizations at a growing rate.

As in the past, some graduates may have to accept positions outside of their field of interest or for which they feel overqualified. Some recent law school graduates who have been unable to find permanent positions are turning to the growing number of temporary staffing firms that place attorneys in short-term jobs. This service allows companies to hire lawyers on an “as-needed” basis and permits beginning lawyers to develop practical skills.

Because of the keen competition for jobs, a law graduate’s geographic mobility and work experience assume greater importance. The willingness to relocate may be an advantage in getting a job, but to be licensed in another State, a lawyer may have to take an additional State bar examination. In addition, employers increasingly seek graduates who have advanced law degrees and experience in a specialty, such as tax, patent, or admiralty law."


Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #212 on: May 14, 2008, 02:35:22 PM »
You're not even giving any law school-specific info!!! We get it: you're disgruntled. What's your point?

Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #213 on: May 14, 2008, 03:08:55 PM »
I am not talking about any specific school.  I am talking about numbers on a macro scale: on the supply side, an ever increasing number of JD's are flooding the market and debt loads are rapidly increasing, and on the demand side, work is being outsourced and streamlined.

Who knows?  At BLS you may be able to buck the trend, but for a tier 2 school in a saturated market, the odds are against you.  Do your research before plopping down $150K.  Too many people rush into law school without doing their research, falsely assuming that "you can never go wrong" getting more education. 

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Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #214 on: May 14, 2008, 03:33:26 PM »
I am not talking about any specific school.  I am talking about numbers on a macro scale: on the supply side, an ever increasing number of JD's are flooding the market and debt loads are rapidly increasing, and on the demand side, work is being outsourced and streamlined.

Who knows?  At BLS you may be able to buck the trend, but for a tier 2 school in a saturated market, the odds are against you.  Do your research before plopping down $150K.  Too many people rush into law school without doing their research, falsely assuming that "you can never go wrong" getting more education. 

I disagree, the problem is far to many wanna be lawyers don't do the RIGHT research, they look at US news and assume they can be good at a profession they know nothing about and don't research any futher than job stats and starting salaries.

The simple fact of the matter is at any given school there are going to be successful graduates and unsuccessful graduates. Law attracts a lot of people, many don’t give much thought to what the practice of the law actually entails. They forget it’s a service industry, one that is closer to sales than to what they see TV lawyers doing. Clients run the show, without clients you don’t get paid, huge law firm or solo practice.

Successful lawyers are those that are not only good at the law, but at selling themselves and making rain. Not everyone who wants be a lawyer is that kind of person. But the people who are that kind of person understand the majority of legal opportunities are not advertised or come from OCI, just like most clients won’t just walk into your door and hand you over money. You have to market yourself. The “good” law students understand this and do it in law school, by networking, by creating opportunities for themselves that others don’t know about. They will find jobs even in a down market. The less successful law stunts rely on the school to get them a job, the firm to find them clients and their boss to tell them what to do.  They will have a harder time finding jobs the lower down the rank their school is. This is the students fault, not the schools, other people in that school will be sucessful but most won't becuase they don't put in the effort.

The type of law student who understands how the game is played and starts playing it in law school will be successful, T14 or T4. There are just much fewer of those type A people out there. The majority of law students will turn into marginal lawyers. All going to a top 14 school does is allow more of them to get their first high paying job, it does not mean they are good at it or can keep it. There is a 80% turnover rate in big law (See Above the law or American lawyer Magazine) a good percentage of this is because many people just don’t have what it takes (regardless of school) to be good at the profession.

Its less a problem of too many schools, or lower ranked school or anything to do with schools and more a problem with too many people trying to be lawyers who just don’t really have what it takes to be good at the profession. The best will rise to the top, be they from T2 or T4, the majority, like the majority of people in life, will end up being mediocre be they top 14 grads or T4 grads.

If you really want to do something about the sad state of law jobs, try and convince people to do more investigating of what the profession actually does, what it takes to be good at it and what skills you need to be successful  rather than just looking at US news and assume for someone unknown reason your actually going to be one of the few people out there that really is a good lawyer. Law school will only do what itys supposed to do, teach you the law enough to pass the bar, skills you need to be a good lawyer, to be the sucessful grad over the unemployed grad you need to teach yourself. Those that do that come out on top, those that don't blame the school for not handing them a job. 

Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #215 on: May 14, 2008, 03:54:57 PM »
Yes, most people will eventually be pushed out of biglaw, but most likely by the time that happens those lucky souls would have been given the opportunity to substantially pay down their loans.   It's a different story for someone who has to pay back $150K in debt and winds up working as a paralegal or secretary.  Imagine how awful it must be to be stuck in a awful job because of student loans.

Yes, successful lawyers "make rain," but there is only so much rain to be made. Remember, only 1 lawyer job for every 3 law graduates.  These are the hard numbers that you are working against.  I am sure every law graduate is "networking" just as hard to land a position that they invested over $100K for.

There are too many law schools.  The number of law schools is determined by the foreign liquidity available for the non-dischargeable student loan pools.  Law schools exist and work with the banks to sell degrees, not to ensure jobs for all graduates.

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Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #216 on: May 14, 2008, 04:14:20 PM »
Yes, most people will eventually be pushed out of biglaw, but most likely by the time that happens those lucky souls would have been given the opportunity to substantially pay down their loans.   It's a different story for someone who has to pay back $150K in debt and winds up working as a paralegal or secretary.  Imagine how awful it must be to be stuck in a awful job because of student loans.

Yes, successful lawyers "make rain," but there is only so much rain to be made. Remember, only 1 lawyer job for every 3 law graduates.  These are the hard numbers that you are working against.  I am sure every law graduate is "networking" just as hard to land a position that they invested over $100K for.

There are too many law schools.  The number of law schools is determined by the foreign liquidity available for the non-dischargeable student loan pools.  Law schools exist and work with the banks to sell degrees, not to ensure jobs for all graduates.

Its not the schools job to get you a job, its a school not an employment agency, people need to take personal responseablity and realize that. Those that do, find good jobs, those that don't female dog about how thier school failed in handing them a job. Odds are good those same people are going to suck at being lawyers. Want to blame someone for the rash of law stundents, there is one guilty party the US goverment. Before student loans people had to be a) rich or b) work while going to law school. Stop subsidising education and the market of new lawyers would dry up. Call me a classest a-hole (which I am) but student loans are the AA for the poor. There are ways to go to law school and not have debt, go with a scholoy, go PT and work. Its just not the easy way, most law students like easy, so they borrow and take no personal effort to find a job, then when the school does not hand them one and they have 150k debt, who do they blame? The system. I’m an alcoholic I blame beer companies they forced me to drink its their fault I got a DUI, I have no personal responsibility in the issue.  ::)

Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #217 on: May 14, 2008, 04:24:08 PM »
I agree about the part re student loans.  I also agree that law schools aren't employment agencies, but I also think the schools have a greater duty to be more forthright and candid when it comes to the publication of their post-graduate career statistics.

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Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #218 on: May 14, 2008, 05:32:24 PM »
I agree about the part re student loans.  I also agree that law schools aren't employment agencies, but I also think the schools have a greater duty to be more forthright and candid when it comes to the publication of their post-graduate career statistics.


Exactly my point about doing more research about your chosen profession than just looking at USNEWS. If you go in with the excpetion that your going to be handed a job and then arn't its not the schools fault, there are studnets getting good jobs from the very same school. I get sick of people saying the school failed me, its like say McDonalds made me fat. No one put a gun to your head and said only look for a job from OCI then give up, the student did that to himself.

Re: Brooklyn Law Student Taking Questions
« Reply #219 on: May 16, 2008, 12:01:44 AM »
I don't know too many people from BLS with 150K in loans. Most of my friends come in with substantial scholarship and they're going to keep them.

I'm a 1L and I already seen enough of MariannaBLS all over the various message boards. You might have hated BLS and your experience back then But BLS is different now. I had a great first year and all of my friends had a great time too. It was difficult at times but it has been a great 1L ride for me.

Living in my great apartment in Feli Hall, running on the Brooklyn Promenade, eating lunch with my friends in the cafeteria, getting together for a beer with my section at the numerous bars in the area, sitting outside just hanging out... I had a great time.     



I never ever felt like BLS misled me on anything. They were very upfront with me before I committed and came through for me when I had doubts.