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Author Topic: Law Firm 'Aggressive Racial Preferences'  (Read 10898 times)

FossilJ

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Re: Law Firm 'Aggressive Racial Preferences'
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2006, 05:53:15 PM »
This is where I disagree with you the most. Do you understand the seriousness of the charge you raise? My least favorite thing about dealing with smart and somewhat partisan is they tend to come up with dichotomies like this. You’ve just said that if someone predetermines the outcome of a study and finds affirmative action to be unacceptable he is guilty of having an anti-black bias. Flawed and convoluted studies are one thing, that we can disagree about, but leaping to a charge of racism/anti-black bias is in this case similar to calling someone a witch, a communist, or a nazi.


Oh, the ironies hidden in the depths of this board!  How did I miss this the first time around?  Thanks for the enlightenment, Dr. Dichotomy.

Pish, J only wants to waste YOUR time.  Get wise.

FossilJ

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Re: Law Firm 'Aggressive Racial Preferences'
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2006, 06:15:35 PM »
Let's not get off on the wrong foot.  I didn't mean to be obnoxious (at least not until I read "baseless theories"), and I apologize for overstating your (and perhaps Sander's -- though I have read the article, and I'm not sure) position about grades.

I think we got caught up in a red herring about qualifications, when the real issue is partners' perceptions of qualifications (which may be influenced by grades or by other things) and whatever other factors may lead to young black associates' leaving firms at a rate disproportionate to other groups.

you're correct sander isnt necessarily saying anything about blacks not being able to do the work. he's talking about the quality of work they receive, mentoring opps, etc and how this may lead them to leave the firm- all based on the perception that they may be less likely to succeed. maybe partners are racist or maybe they're elitist with regards to incoming credentials. more likely they're both but what i got from the article was we shouldnt discount the possibility that partners and senior associates in a prestigewhoring profession will be inherently biased againt people not on lr, from lower schools, in the bottom half of the class etc.

I don't think that this is all Sander is saying, but I do agree roughly that these perceptions (be they perfectly well-founded, racist, elitist, or anything else) may cause all sorts of disparate treatment within the firm that leads to black associates' dissatisfaction. 

Assuming, arguendo, that Sander is correct that treatment within the firm has something (a lot) to do with grades, it's a problem -- a racist problem -- if partners expect less of black associates because black associates on the aggregate have lower grades than white associates.  This is why I have consistently suggested looking at the experiences of non-black associates who were hired with poor grades and the experiences of black associates who were hired with grades in the firms' normal ranges.  These data could help us understand whether it is individual associates' grades or rather the perception of their grades based on their race that causes the disparate treatment. 

I tend to believe that recent anti-affirmative action work (like Sander's mismatch theory) exacerbates whatever irrational biases partners may have, whether those biases be against attorneys who enter with low grades or black attorneys.  It both elevates law school grading to a perfect science of merit and denigrates (pun intended, I guess) black law students at top schools.

Last, it's possible that rewarding grades at the expense of other achievements may be a way of replicating whatever racial biases exist in law school grades.  I do not know enough about this to comment much further, but, for instance, the smaller race gap in take-home exam performance may suggest that law schools should emphasize use take-home exams, and they do not.

Bingo.  Grading is an imperfect system.  Basing "objective" reports on grading is problematic, in and of itself. 
Pish, J only wants to waste YOUR time.  Get wise.

Miss P

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Re: Law Firm 'Aggressive Racial Preferences'
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2006, 01:48:25 PM »
I saw a few lurkers checking out this thread, so I thought now would be as good a time as any to register my disappointment that the anti-AA people on the board rather consistently come in and ask for a good-faith discussion of the issue but then never seem to pick up the ball themselves.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

obamacon

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Re: Law Firm 'Aggressive Racial Preferences'
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2007, 08:59:11 AM »
I saw a few lurkers checking out this thread, so I thought now would be as good a time as any to register my disappointment that the anti-AA people on the board rather consistently come in and ask for a good-faith discussion of the issue but then never seem to pick up the ball themselves.

I blame the public schools.

Miss P

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Re: Law Firm 'Aggressive Racial Preferences'
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2007, 06:58:57 PM »
I saw a few lurkers checking out this thread, so I thought now would be as good a time as any to register my disappointment that the anti-AA people on the board rather consistently come in and ask for a good-faith discussion of the issue but then never seem to pick up the ball themselves.

I blame the public schools.

A day late and a dollar short.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

Quote from: archival
I'm so far from the end of my tether right now that I reckon I could knit myself some socks with the slack.

Astro

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Re: Law Firm 'Aggressive Racial Preferences'
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2007, 07:17:02 PM »
I saw a few lurkers checking out this thread, so I thought now would be as good a time as any to register my disappointment that the anti-AA people on the board rather consistently come in and ask for a good-faith discussion of the issue but then never seem to pick up the ball themselves.

I blame the public schools.

A day late and a dollar short.

 :D :D :D
J, if you didn't bring enough penis for everyone, you shouldn't have brought any penis at all.