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Author Topic: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?  (Read 3048 times)

DougLlewellyn

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2006, 09:12:13 PM »
While this post is likely to raise controversy and I'll agree that it is generalizing, I think it is worthy of at least some consideration. At least from what I've seen thus far, many of the minority scholarships, grants, aid that are supposedly allocated for minority groups that otherwise would have been excluded from a professional education seem to go to a cross-section of those minority groups that is actually upper-middle class, if not more well to do. It seems to me that these funds/aid should be more directly tied to one's socioeconomic status and particular background rather than stated race alone.  I say stated as I know several people who've essentially lied and gotten away with claiming minority status. I am surely in support of these programs, just pointing out what I perceive to be an increasing problem with these programs.

Also, in fairness just because one parent makes a lot of money, doesn't mean that a student from a divorced family has any financial access/ties to that parent. Of course, if he/she does and the connection is not taken into account, the system is being cheated.

I believe that affirmative action programs and scholarships designed to promote equal opportunity and address social inequality should require a needs assessment.  This isn't to say that wealthy or higher SES minorities won't or haven't encountered discrimination.  I just think that it would be lazy and wasteful public policy to not identify the most needy from underpriviledged populations and help them first.

From your post, it seems that the minority scholarships you are referring to are school based and not from outside organizations.  Is this a correct assumption on my part?  Most outside minority scholarships require lengthy essays and a demonstrated need. 

Schools utilize a number of different scholarship programs for a range of recruitment purposes.  Minority scholarships offered by schools, lacking any other stated purpose, are designed to attract and retain minority students.  If the purpose is simply representation and diversity, then I see no reason why these scholarships should have to have a need-based component.  For diverity purposes, a wealthy Ivy League black or Mexican student counts just the same as a black or Mexican first generation college graduate from a lower SES background. 

A definition of diversity that fails to consider personal background and only looks at race is admittedly superficial.  However, I don't blame schools for trying to attract and compete for the best qualified minority students even if they are disproprtionately from more priviledged families.       

sck

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2006, 09:14:34 PM »
I had a situation similar to baytostay.

We were pretty well off: brother in a private school, nice cars, nice house in a very desirable area. But we always lived carefully. My parents didn't even bother applying for financial aid when I was going. They just had too many assets. Nevermind we'd lived off of interest for a couple of years while my dad was unemployed. He made a lot of money the year before I went to school, but most of it was not liquid. They paid for all of my (very expensive!) private school, and my mom told me years later how tough it was the first two years until they managed to free up some assets. But they weren't happy having to pretty much pull from their retirement fund to pay for school.

But I know I was lucky. I came through school without any debts, and although they helped me my first year of grad school, after that I was on my own. I dropped out, but while I was in school, I paid for all of it. No loans. (HOnestly, I knew nothing about loans, and I might have been better off having gotten them.. but I'm also sure I wouldn't have been able to afford to pay them back.) My parents have been unbelievably generous to me since, too

I'm paying for law school totally on my own. The only thing I can see asking for help on would possibly be a loan for a seat deposit, since those would be coming due right around the time I'm getting married. And frankly, the idea of the staggering debt is scary to me, since I've never had to deal with it.

All that said, I can see resentment towards people who cheat for it, or who flaunt their wealth. I never thought of us as rich, although some of my friends might disagree. Just, we lived next door to doctors and highly-paid lawyers, and my brother went to high school with Lloyd Bentson's grandson -- we saw a lot of people with far more money than we had!

I really just hope I'm some day financially secure enough to be able to be as generous with my children as my parents have been with my brother and me.
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queencruella

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2006, 10:18:52 PM »
I think there are people who "expect" their parents to pay for them to go to school but at the same time take their schooling for granted. I have been extremely lucky and am grateful for all my parents have done for me. However, I have one friend whose parents supported her through grad school who did not have that attitude. She racked up credit card debt, got crappy grades, and still hasn't managed to get her degree (I graduated 3 years ago). While 18-year-olds may be expected to have this sort of behavior, once people reach their mid-twenties, it's no longer acceptable to be so irresponsible.

BigRig

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2006, 10:50:33 AM »
While this post is likely to raise controversy and I'll agree that it is generalizing, I think it is worthy of at least some consideration. At least from what I've seen thus far, many of the minority scholarships, grants, aid that are supposedly allocated for minority groups that otherwise would have been excluded from a professional education seem to go to a cross-section of those minority groups that is actually upper-middle class, if not more well to do. It seems to me that these funds/aid should be more directly tied to one's socioeconomic status and particular background rather than stated race alone.  I say stated as I know several people who've essentially lied and gotten away with claiming minority status. I am surely in support of these programs, just pointing out what I perceive to be an increasing problem with these programs.

Also, in fairness just because one parent makes a lot of money, doesn't mean that a student from a divorced family has any financial access/ties to that parent. Of course, if he/she does and the connection is not taken into account, the system is being cheated.

I believe that affirmative action programs and scholarships designed to promote equal opportunity and address social inequality should require a needs assessment.  This isn't to say that wealthy or higher SES minorities won't or haven't encountered discrimination.  I just think that it would be lazy and wasteful public policy to not identify the most needy from underpriviledged populations and help them first.

From your post, it seems that the minority scholarships you are referring to are school based and not from outside organizations.  Is this a correct assumption on my part?  Most outside minority scholarships require lengthy essays and a demonstrated need. 

Schools utilize a number of different scholarship programs for a range of recruitment purposes.  Minority scholarships offered by schools, lacking any other stated purpose, are designed to attract and retain minority students.  If the purpose is simply representation and diversity, then I see no reason why these scholarships should have to have a need-based component.  For diverity purposes, a wealthy Ivy League black or Mexican student counts just the same as a black or Mexican first generation college graduate from a lower SES background. 

A definition of diversity that fails to consider personal background and only looks at race is admittedly superficial.  However, I don't blame schools for trying to attract and compete for the best qualified minority students even if they are disproprtionately from more priviledged families.       

Well said. In reality, law school is a business as much as it's an institution of education and they are free to build this component however they so choose, especially if using their funds. As you correctly pointed out, it's more a matter of public policy and shaping federal programs/funding that in fact promote equal opportunity for those coming from a disadvantaged situation. For me, I was hoping to see more minority groups from all walks of life, that's all. It has been my experience that an alarming majority of people (black, white, hispanic, etc.) in law school (I've visited many) are from well-to-do, suburban backgrounds (whether they admit it or not). This prob makes objective sense as getting into law school is much easier if you've had access to quality education and financial/familial support. I believe we need more socioeconomic diversity in law school.
Attending FSU.Go Noles!!!

toomuchhype

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2006, 11:05:18 AM »
Not angry, jealous.  Damn debt

sck

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2006, 11:09:57 AM »
Wow, Matthies... that's different from my experience, too, and I was born in the early 70s as well.

I guess it just depends on how you were raised with it. I was raised with the expectation I would go to college -- it was never, ever a question in my mind, and the thought of not going never even occurred to me. Likewise was the assumption that my parents would help. They told me early on in the application process that they would pay for wherever I wished to go, because it was important to them that I get to go there. The deal was, they would continue to help me and support me so long as I was in school. No getting married, no dropping to part time. If I did that, I was cut off. And they helped until I was 23 or so, then I went on my own. My brother, he was cut off about age 20 after my mom gave him an ultimatum: either go to your classes and stop dropping them, or stop wasting your money on school you're not taking seriously, move out and support yourself. He moved out.

But then, I think their philosophy was that education was the most important thing and they wanted us to not have the difficulties they had in getting schooling. They could afford it, so they wanted to provide it. I went the full school route; my brother wasn't as cut out for it, so he dropped out, worked odd jobs, and opened a store. I'm not sure which of us is better off, although I can say that I definitely appreciate the value of working really hard in school more now than I did in high school or college (and my grades then showed it.)

LSN
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baytostay

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2006, 02:48:21 PM »
Yeah, I deleted that. I was pretty upset by LSD MOM's post above. I can't really respond to LSD Mom's post without giving away far more personal information than I would like to.

I was just trying to convey LadyTrojan's sentiment, "I really don't understand why parents who have the means to ensure otherwise would rather see their kids starting their lives out with debt." I just want you to know that I would never expect my parents to dip into their retirement fund to pay for anything.  My whole point was that they could afford to pay all of tution, in cash, today and not change their standard of living one iota. And I was not saying that they should pay all of my tuition, just that since they can afford to, it would be nice of them to kick in part of what the government has determined to be their Expected FAMILY Contribution.

I think it's pretty UNbelieveable that LSDMom made such huge (incorrect) assumptions about me and where I'm coming from.  She said that she can't imagine that I even considered taking out the unsubsidized loans.  Since I have already taken them out, I'm guessing she's wrong on that one...and a lot more.

tacojohn

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2006, 04:09:04 PM »
It sounds like the vast majority of people here are not mad at people who don't have to pay for school, but rather people who get to have luxuries, and sometimes those that have a bad attitude about having those luxuries.  Also the people who have cheated the system to get free, need-based aid that does not have to be repayed when they were not eligible for it.

My tuition was paid for both undergrad (parents) and law school (scholarship, just need to get the grades for one more year).  I was asked by my parents to take on a little debt in undergrad, and took on more for law school.  There's a major positive to student loans in undergrad, especially if it's a small amount, because it's some of the best and cheapest debt for a young adult to pay off to gain a credit rating.

Whatever you decide to do with your kids is up to you.  I disagree that forcing your kid to pay for school is wrong, and I disagree that paying every penny for your kid and buying them a new car to take to school is wrong as well.  Here's what I feel is wrong: failing to communicate what's going to happen to your kid.  If you tell your child during the winter of their senior year, just as they are about to make the decision where to go to school, and they have got their heart set on a couple of schools, that you won't be paying anything, especially if you were in some way able to, that's wrong. 

If I wasn't going to be able to pay for my kid's college, I would tell them at the beginning of high school.  They could make decisions at this point about what they want to do with the rest of their lives.  And if they are to be treated like adults, then they deserve the maximum amount of information about their situation, so they can make an informed, adult decisions.

Personally, I plan to have a plan that will be able to basically support my kid in every way except entertainment.  This is not because I want to coddle my kid, it's because not having to pay for anything important is a significant advantage.  I may not pay for grad school, but if I can ensure that my kid does not have to work for more than spending money, I've given him or her a significant advantage in getting into grad school (I think, maybe working students get in more often, across the board, but I don't think that's true). 

In return, I expect my kid to reduce costs a little bit.  It's one thing to know your college is taken care of and you won't need to worry about money.  It's another thing to know this and thus not apply for scholarships you may have earned.  So I expect them to apply for every scholarship they are eligible for, and at least discuss some student loans, even if they'll only take a nominal couple of thousand.

baytostay

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2006, 06:22:08 PM »
LDS Mom--I really do appreciate your apology.  I think that we both interpreted each other's posts differently than they were meant. 

I did not mean to say that I would not be happy to have any loans, but rather that I would prefer my loans were determined by my income, not my parents income, since I alone will have to pay them off, and my income and assets are in the thousands, while theirs are in the millions.  Obviously, financial aid can't work like this, otherwise rich parents could just let the government pay for their kids education instead of paying it themselves.  However, as long as my rich parents decide not to help me at all, I will be at a financial disadvantage compared to someone with poor parents and my same income, even though i don't have any more assets at my disposal than that person does.  Does that make more sense?

rajkp

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Re: do u get mad at people who dont have to pay for school?
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2006, 07:18:56 PM »
Consider this if you will. Those people who don't pay for their own schooling don't put as much effort into their studies as those who have to pay out of their own pocket.

This is a good thing; it means they're not as likely to challenge for the top of the class.


And on that note, I graduated ugrad without any debt, but I stayed in-state and went to a public school, so everything was much cheaper.