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Tuttipoopoo

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f
« on: June 09, 2006, 07:32:10 PM »
f
Waiting.....

mivida2k

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2006, 11:18:36 AM »
"white" people.
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scooby21322

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 12:37:03 PM »
Yes this is true with law school.

philibusters

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2006, 12:08:14 AM »
I know its not what the author intended, but this thread has serious potential.  In the Reparations thread, I know RBG said he thought the systems and institutions of our society were beneficiaries of AA because AA subdued dissent.  I have the top of my head I can think of quite a few possible answers and I am probably missing obvious ones

1.  The beneficiaries
2.  The minority groups (they get role models and people in power who will look after their interest, along with people who will be willing to teach them how to use the systems in place better)
3.  Current leaders (add legitimacy to their control by quelling dissent)
4  The institutions (similiar to three, but instead of individuals, I am referring to processes)
5.  The general public (they benefit from having multiple pts of view in leadership and having leadership that actually           represents values of parts of society, also diversity leads to less close-minded persecution which benefits most people, who are in a minority or disadvantage group in some way, whether my class, gender, or race, finally having diverse people in power leads to more ideas in the marketplace of ideas)
6.  Radical groups (more diversity equals more heterogeneity, and the desire to persecute those that are different lessens, those unpopular gadflies benefit)
7.  Economy/capitialist are benefitted because a host of smart people who are very capable, who would not be in the workforce and be used efficiently are now in the workforce being used efficiently, greasing the wheels of the economy and business.
8.  Democrats-keeps minorities as a voting bloc in their camp
9.  Political hacks are both sides, who make silly arguments, but use the issue because they know people will respond to it.

Another question would be does AA have losers, if so who and how.  A few possible (but very debateable) category of peoples are
1.  Marginal non-favored candidates
2.  Society as a whole (merit triumphed, consensus and togetherness diluted by diversity)
3.  Minority group (their accomplishment diminished
2008 graduate of William and Mary Law School

nyugrad06

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2007, 09:40:14 AM »
Who loses?

Obviously the Constitution/DoI lose...

anyone who believes racism is wrong loses

Ideals are important too...

H4CS

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2007, 10:53:04 AM »
Obviously the Constitution/DoI lose...

Specifically the 18th amendment.

Brito

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2007, 11:29:02 AM »
Obviously the Constitution/DoI lose...

Specifically the 18th amendment.

 :D :D :D
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philibusters

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2007, 01:26:07 AM »
Who loses?

Obviously the Constitution/DoI lose...

anyone who believes racism is wrong loses

Ideals are important too...

Hmmm, are you saying racism can exist without victims.  It seems to be if there is racism, there must be a class of victims.  Thus are you saying whites as a whole are degraded by AA, or that marginal candidates are affected, but no matter, if you can't relate racism to a class of people or victims, then you really don't idea worth worrying about.  Would it matter if I hate purple aliens-Not really, how does that hurt any creature, maybe they exist somewhere across the galaxy, probably they don't, but no person or alien is hurt by my hate for purple aliens.  Ideas only matter when they affect people.

Nevertheless, I agree ideas are important because they usually do affect behavior.  Copying and pasting a post I made in Red's stereotype threat thread (pg. 24, took me like 5 minutes to sort through that thread and find the stupid post), here are a few ways to view AA abstractly, list not exhaustive at all...
"A.  Merit

Argument 1 --AA defeats a merit system because it allows in those with lower stats
Argument 2- Merit is subjective
Argument 3- The current admission system is fauculty in that test conditions favor some groups more than others, so merit must take into account other factors.

B.  Moral
Argument 1-- Natural law says we are all equal so giving some people an advantage is immoral
Argument 2-- The moral  thing to do is to help the disadvantaged, otherwise we endorse permanent inequality

C.  Social
Argument 1-- Diversity is a needed thing in higher education and society as a whole, else we segregate or selves and lose productivity and cause unnecessary quarrels.
Argument 2--Society needs to make sure there are no permanent underclass or they risk creating an alienated segment of the population that will reject mainstream values and be a burden to the rest of society.

D. Political
Argument 1--AA is an example of speical interests gone amok- going into areas they have no business going into.
Argument 2-- For a gov't to have political legitimacy in a political democracy- staple institutions like the legal profession must be inclusive to all segments of society.
Argument 3--AA is a result of a natural political process and we should accept just like we accept different tax brackets and the different ways gov't treats different people (think of the substantive due process part of your first year ConLaw course here).

E.  Historical (Similiar to political-usually you would blend them together)
Argument 1:  We have done things a certain way for so long.  Originally there must have been a purpose and now AA become an institution in itself and cannot be done away with in the present without interfering with people's expectation.
Argument 2:  AA is not an end to itself, but one step in a process towards equal civil rights, and it is a mistake to try to isolate the issue away from the larger civil rights issues.
Argument 3:  Whatever the historical reasons in the larger civil rights context, in todays world the URM's that benefit the most from upper class backgrounds and are already empowered from a civil rights perspective due to their economic success.
Argument 4:  AA helped create a self-sustainable middle class-so because the program is successful we should encourage it.
F.  Economic
Argument 1--AA increases productivity by... (never heard this argument, but imagine what Posner would say if he was in support of AA).  One example might be AA increases economic productivity by giving people who have contact segments of the population that are underdeveloped the technical skills to bring economic development.
Argument 2-- AA decreases productivity by... (never heard this argument, but imagine what Posner would say if he was against AA).  One example would it decreases productivity by interfering with the natural market of higher education-adding fat to it."
2008 graduate of William and Mary Law School

Miss P

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2007, 02:12:11 AM »
Obviously the Constitution/DoI lose...

Specifically the 18th amendment.

Law schools also look a lot like the British Crown.  Don't sleep on the Declaration, kiddo.
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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veritas_fl

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Re: Who is helped by affirmative action?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2007, 09:33:18 AM »
affirmative action does not have the meaning it once did and now only serves to allow schools to accept mediocre applicants over more qualified ones simply to fill their "minority count."