Why Affirmative Action is Justified

[WarrenG]

"As a factual matter, it has been shown, using longitudinal survey data, that applicants who had been admitted under Affirmative Action at Michigan Law went on to lead careers that were as productive, as accomplished and as well renumerated as those of white students"

If you don't mind me asking, how did they measure productivity and accomplishment in this study?

[redemption]

"As a factual matter, it has been shown, using longitudinal survey data, that applicants who had been admitted under Affirmative Action at Michigan Law went on to lead careers that were as productive, as accomplished and as well renumerated as those of white students"

If you don't mind me asking, how did they measure productivity and accomplishment in this study?

By the usual metrics. I'll look it up and give you an exact response. 

[redemption]

you mention women here.  do you think that women should receive some sort of boost in the admissions process? (i'm fairly certain that they don't anymore, although I could be wrong.)

Women do not seem to bear the brunt of stereotype threat in relation to the LSAT. So for law school admissions purposes, my provisional answer is no.

Women do, however, face a stereotype threat in traditionally "male" disciplines -- namely engineering, math etc - and in those cases, I would support a correction for that effect.

I think that's fair?

[redemption]

I guess the first problem for me is qualifying the stereotype and demonstrating that its pervasive.  From what I can tell these studies are assuming the participants are all aware of the stereotypes to a uniform degree.

 Did they control for people from the south, ceratin metropolitan areas, people that had gone to private vs public school, people  with families from lower income brackets, people who had college educated family members, the kind of media people were exposed to, etc etc? Cause I would bet all of those factor into a persons understanding of a stereotype.

You have to bear in mind that, in each of these studies, they are taking one a group that is highly accomplished in a field, randomly selecting half of the people in that group and exposing it to a stereotype fear, and comparing the results. The chances that a randomly-selected group would have a systematic bias in any other way than their exposure to the stereotype threat, and that that systematic bias is around a factor that affects performance, are unimaginably small.

Keep in mind also that these tests have been replicated over and over again across different continents, time periods, cities, contexts, etc. What are the chances that it could be anything other than stereotype threat?

[redemption]

you mention women here.  do you think that women should receive some sort of boost in the admissions process? (i'm fairly certain that they don't anymore, although I could be wrong.)

Women do not seem to bear the brunt of stereotype threat in relation to the LSAT. So for law school admissions purposes, my provisional answer is no.

Women do, however, face a sterotype threat in traditionally "male" disciplines -- namely engineering, math etc - and in those cases, I would support a correction for that effect.

I think that's fair?

I think, actually that there may already be some correction in place in (some of) those fields.  I've heard, for instance, that it's a lot easier for women to be accepted to top business schools.  I'm not sure to what extent this is true, but it seems logical.

That's a good example, and it's true that business schools practice affirmative action for women.

[redemption]

At the risk of being snide, sure it derserves a corection, but if its just a psychological problem it warrants psychological fix: some sort of pre test counseling regimen.  Thats what the studies seem to indicate works.

That may very well be the first-best solution. And in the absence of such a program? What do you think would be fair?

[dividebyzero]

Red, you sweetie, you! You've consistently given us a beautiful, studied, well-reasoned, and insightful commentary on AA despite LSD's usually repetitive and unproductive discussions. For once, this thread has been a pleasure to read, and I look forward to seeing the discussion continue.

Thanks Red, maybe there's hope after all 

[H4CS]

Tag with skepticism that merits more thought.  Can this all be grounded on the stereotype threat or is that merely a transmission mechanism?  Does grounding this on stereotype threat shield what lies beneath.  Could deeper analysis perhaps lead to a more targeted intervention that could address these issues.  A quick analogy before I do more thinking:

Black male life expectency is much shorter than White male life expectency in America.  In fact, as Sen points out, Black American males live shorter than Chinese and Keralan males (White American males live longer than both).  It would seem silly to me to argue that the best way to address these health shortcomings would be to cite a number of studies on vitamin deficiency to explain the difference.  That's sort of what this feels like.  I don't agree with the principles, I just think that you've giving too much centrality to what is essentially a symptom and not the problem.

[redemption]

Red, you sweetie, you! You've consistently given us a beautiful, studied, well-reasoned, and insightful commentary on AA despite LSD's usually repetitive and unproductive discussions. For once, this thread has been a pleasure to read, and I look forward to seeing the discussion continue.

Thanks Red, maybe there's hope after all 

Haha. Thanks. I thought three times before starting this thread, and I'm hoping that it is #500 and that you owe me a prize 

[redemption]

Ta dah. Its that easy! This study is after all undisputed 

Okay. You seem unpersuaded but you can't seem to articulate why. I get that.