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Author Topic: Ask a Homosexual  (Read 44935 times)

angmill08

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2006, 04:57:56 PM »
In order for gay people to win the heart of middle America, they must be seen, not simply as outsiders, but as victims.

I don't know about "victims". I think in order for gays to win the heart of middle America, they must be seen as middle America. I bet that as gays become more visible and integrated into the mainstream, it will be harder and harder to justify denying them the same rights that heterosexuals have.
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trogdor

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2006, 05:10:53 PM »
in an ideal world, it shouldn't matter whether it's biological, environmental, or simply a choice.  however, it does matter as far as winning support from the masses.  my opinion based upon my own experiences and studies i've read:  it must be a combination of environment and biology, but i would suggest biology creates a powerful proclivity (at least 50%). 
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Miss P

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2006, 05:20:55 PM »
in an ideal world, it shouldn't matter whether it's biological, environmental, or simply a choice.  however, it does matter as far as winning support from the masses. 

You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.
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trogdor

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2006, 05:29:28 PM »
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 
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Miss P

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2006, 05:33:12 PM »
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 

Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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trogdor

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2006, 05:44:58 PM »
Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."

i agree... it's a sad state of affairs when you have to justify your sexuality in order to gain the same access to benefits as straight people.  i guess from a pragmatic standpoint however, i think we should capitalize on studies linking sexuality to biology in order to gain tangible benefits, while continuing to push for broader cultural change.  i think one provides the impetus to advance the other. 
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Angelina1

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2006, 06:20:40 PM »
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 

Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."

I think you are 100% on point here, Miss P, as well as in your previous posts. I think that by trying to justify someone's personal sexuality--whether through biology or some other means--lends undeserved legitimacy to the idea that equal rights should be open for debate. It is simply a matter of equity. Period, end of story.

I also don't think there's a point in trying to "convince" fundamentalists of anything involving logic, since, by definition, their views of homosexuality are contradictory and illogically constructed (ever notice how they cherry-pick passages from the Old Testament and New Testament, and mash them together to make it look like accepting Christ as your personal saviour is predicated on not being gay? Sorry to go of on a rant, but it's just so STUPID).

I agree that liberals and activists need to work on their framing, but the people to focus on are the vast numbers of Americans who, though they may find gay sex "icky," still have enough of a sense of fairness that they would support equal rights if presented with a clear choice (though I hate the proverbial "polls," in this case I'll break down and cite the fact that the majority of Americans actually are not opposed to gay rights; now that passive lack of objection just needs to be turned into active support, and the fundamentalists don't stand a chance). And I agree with whomever said that the Democratic party should take a stronger stance on this. Stop waffling around about it! That is just lame. I think that the movement is unstoppable and greater equality is inevitable, but the Democrats could make it a whole lot easier on everyone if they got some backbone and righteous indignation on this issue. This is the Civil Rights movement of our generation--I guarantee that in 20 years, everyone will be looking back on this time period and wondering how anything like DOMA could have ever happened in this country in much the same way we look back now and shake our heads over Plessy v. Ferguson, etc.

Okay, that's the end of my rant (for now).
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Miss P

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2006, 06:39:48 PM »
You know, I think a lot of gay people think that a biological origin would be secure a better status for homosexuality in the minds of homophobic straight people, but I'm not sure that "choice" and "environment" are the real objections they have to our sexuality.  People harbor all kinds of prejudices about things that are more or less biological (such as penis size or skin color), probably a combination of biology and environment (such as weight), likely environmental (such as literacy), and absolutely matters of choice (such as hair color and tattoos).  I don't think saying that biology did it is really going to matter to these people.

true... i'm not saying a scientifically identified biological origin would cause all homophobes to purge their prejudice.  yet, a biological origin would provide powerful support and rationale for rights.  again, i'm not saying this should be the case, but realistically, in the minds of many, it is. 

Fair enough.  But I'd rather not have my rights dependent on that.  I think it should be enough to say, "This is how I live my life, and it doesn't hurt or involve you, so there's no reason for you to discriminate against me, and I'd like us all to have health insurance.  Thanks."

I think you are 100% on point here, Miss P, as well as in your previous posts. I think that by trying to justify someone's personal sexuality--whether through biology or some other means--lends undeserved legitimacy to the idea that equal rights should be open for debate. It is simply a matter of equity. Period, end of story.

I also don't think there's a point in trying to "convince" fundamentalists of anything involving logic, since, by definition, their views of homosexuality are contradictory and illogically constructed (ever notice how they cherry-pick passages from the Old Testament and New Testament, and mash them together to make it look like accepting Christ as your personal saviour is predicated on not being gay? Sorry to go of on a rant, but it's just so STUPID).

I agree that liberals and activists need to work on their framing, but the people to focus on are the vast numbers of Americans who, though they may find gay sex "icky," still have enough of a sense of fairness that they would support equal rights if presented with a clear choice (though I hate the proverbial "polls," in this case I'll break down and cite the fact that the majority of Americans actually are not opposed to gay rights; now that passive lack of objection just needs to be turned into active support, and the fundamentalists don't stand a chance). And I agree with whomever said that the Democratic party should take a stronger stance on this. Stop waffling around about it! That is just lame. I think that the movement is unstoppable and greater equality is inevitable, but the Democrats could make it a whole lot easier on everyone if they got some backbone and righteous indignation on this issue. This is the Civil Rights movement of our generation--I guarantee that in 20 years, everyone will be looking back on this time period and wondering how anything like DOMA could have ever happened in this country in much the same way we look back now and shake our heads over Plessy v. Ferguson, etc.

Okay, that's the end of my rant (for now).

I'm with you 100%.  Thank you.  And rant on!
That's cool how you referenced a case.

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odaiko

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2006, 06:51:53 PM »
Ok, other random questions for the day:

What about a person's appearance and behavior distinguish him/her as being gay, thus triggering "gaydar"? Why do even people who are in the closet send off gaydar alarms? (This is fact. I can vouch for it.)

The idea of gaydar makes me question the "nurture" idea of sexuality, because if sexuality is naturally ambiguous (which is what I believe), and if it's just our society that forces us into tidy binary categories, then why is there such a clear definition between people who do exhibit "gay" behaviors/apperance and those who don't? (To buy this like of questioning, I guess you need to buy the fact that gaydar exists and is accurate.)

Sorry. Apparently I'm full of questions for other homosexuals! But would love to hear responses.
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incognito

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Re: Ask a Homosexual
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2006, 07:14:40 PM »
Ok, other random questions for the day:

What about a person's appearance and behavior distinguish him/her as being gay, thus triggering "gaydar"? Why do even people who are in the closet send off gaydar alarms? (This is fact. I can vouch for it.)

The idea of gaydar makes me question the "nurture" idea of sexuality, because if sexuality is naturally ambiguous (which is what I believe), and if it's just our society that forces us into tidy binary categories, then why is there such a clear definition between people who do exhibit "gay" behaviors/apperance and those who don't? (To buy this like of questioning, I guess you need to buy the fact that gaydar exists and is accurate.)

Sorry. Apparently I'm full of questions for other homosexuals! But would love to hear responses.

For me, it is all about non-verbal responses, mostly eye contact.  I've found that gay men are more likely to look me in the eye than are straight men, or maybe it is that they are willing to hold the contact for a longer period of time.  Straight men treat me as I treat women, they look at me and immediately dismiss me as a potential mate.

I have a question myself:  what would you like straight people to know about gay people?
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