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Author Topic: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?  (Read 24302 times)

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #120 on: May 09, 2006, 03:41:19 AM »
Well, to be fair, bass was being mischievous in writing "(mis)read", and in the context of this thread, it was a risky bit of mischief that was likely to rile up "guess who".


On another note, is it me, or is Googler on the verge of donning his hood?

That's all I'm saying!!!  Why do that when you know it is just enflaming a situation?! Plus, bass don't give me attitude! >:( ;)
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George Jefferson˛

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2006, 11:46:31 AM »
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.
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George Jefferson˛

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2006, 11:57:25 AM »
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

you don't have to fail out to be a poor student.

I'd go to a white or black doctor who was OK in undergrad but pwn3d medical school over a white or black doctor pwn3d undergrad but was weak in med school. When I am selecting a doctor, I am not particularly interested in how well he or she did in undergrad or on the MCAT. If I were an 8-hour multiple choice test I might be concerned. Chances are we will never discuss Bach, Locke, or any such person. I want to know if the doctor made the most of medical school. If the doctor has done well, I am ok with that.
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John Galt

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2006, 12:42:59 PM »
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

I see.  So let me ask you a question then.  Let's say I'm sitting on a law school adcom and I'm reading an app from a student who transfered into Cornell.  Now to go to Cornell from HS, you sort of have to be the cream of the crop, but a transfer probably wasn't and only had numbers to go to a lesser school somewhere in Colorado.  Now, are you telling me that I should discount the transfer's record while he was at Cornell and immediately dismiss him out of hand because he didn't start with the same record, or should I consider how he performed in college?  Well, Googler?

excellent. Almost too easy.

George Jefferson˛

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2006, 01:46:10 PM »
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

I see.  So let me ask you a question then.  Let's say I'm sitting on a law school adcom and I'm reading an app from a student who transfered into Cornell.  Now to go to Cornell from HS, you sort of have to be the cream of the crop, but a transfer probably wasn't and only had numbers to go to a lesser school somewhere in Colorado.  Now, are you telling me that I should discount the transfer's record while he was at Cornell and immediately dismiss him out of hand because he didn't start with the same record, or should I consider how he performed in college?  Well, Googler?

The whole premise is flawed, because I had the numbers to get into Cornell as a freshman (SAT: 1450, GPA: 93 from a good public school). 

How is the premise flawed?
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George Jefferson˛

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2006, 01:54:51 PM »
yes, if there are no mitigating factors.  I would never consider a black doctor just out of residency after HMS, while I'd consider a white one, due to AA.  Bluntly, AA means that a professional does not carry the cachet of the school.  He might be a perfectly good doctor, but he isn't an HMS doctor. 

This only applies to professionals a few years out of school, after that reputation would be the most significant factor.

I think we are all dumber for having read your post.

i'm not, but that's because i've been innoculated against such things by exposure to breadboy.

While his argument sounds somewhat like a rant, he has a point.  If for some odd reason, you only want to be treated by a right out of school Harvard Medical School student, his argument makes sense.  To get into HMS, you have to be the absolute cream of the crop.  Therefore, he can be assured you are very bright.  However, due to affirmative action, a URM who was admitted to HMS may only have numbers that would have qualified him/her for Tufts or BU.  While this certainly doesn't mean that this person is dumb (getting into any top 50 medical school is a challenge), this person probably isn't the cream of the crop. 

Wouldn't this "cream of the crop" designation be earned while in medical school? No one cares if a star burns out before graduation.

No, because medical schools are structured in a way that virtually nobody fails out. 

I see.  So let me ask you a question then.  Let's say I'm sitting on a law school adcom and I'm reading an app from a student who transfered into Cornell.  Now to go to Cornell from HS, you sort of have to be the cream of the crop, but a transfer probably wasn't and only had numbers to go to a lesser school somewhere in Colorado.  Now, are you telling me that I should discount the transfer's record while he was at Cornell and immediately dismiss him out of hand because he didn't start with the same record, or should I consider how he performed in college?  Well, Googler?

The whole premise is flawed, because I had the numbers to get into Cornell as a freshman (SAT: 1450, GPA: 93 from a good public school). 

How is the premise flawed?

Because we're talking about people who get into schools despite having crappy numbers.  Mine weren't. 

The question appeared to be about what a law school adcomm should do when faced with two types of applicants.
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George Jefferson˛

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #126 on: May 09, 2006, 02:12:37 PM »
Figuring out rank in med schools is much like figuring out rank at YLS, not HLS or undergrad.

One cannot surmise the quality of a doctor based on the grades recieved at medical school.  The only way one should go to a "new" doctor is if he graduated from a top school.  But AA means that given the information you have, a black doctor from a top school is less qualified than a white one.  Get rid of AA, get rid of this problem.

When all else is fuzzy, just go with the white guy?
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redemption

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2006, 02:21:24 PM »
Figuring out rank in med schools is much like figuring out rank at YLS, not HLS or undergrad.

One cannot surmise the quality of a doctor based on the grades recieved at medical school.  The only way one should go to a "new" doctor is if he graduated from a top school.  But AA means that given the information you have, a black doctor from a top school is less qualified than a white one. Get rid of AA, get rid of this problem.

Does AA stand for "African-Americans" or for "Affirmative Action" in this instance?

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2006, 02:35:17 PM »
Figuring out rank in med schools is much like figuring out rank at YLS, not HLS or undergrad.

One cannot surmise the quality of a doctor based on the grades recieved at medical school.  The only way one should go to a "new" doctor is if he graduated from a top school.  But AA means that given the information you have, a black doctor from a top school is less qualified than a white one.  Get rid of AA, get rid of this problem.

That's pretty stupid.  Firstly, there's is very little AA in medical school.  I have numerous friends who have gone through the process (even the elusive black male) with decent numbers coming from good schools who have had difficulties.  My bf's bro, who starts his residency this year, just laughed when I asked him if there was AA in medical school.

Secondly, how you get there is not the key indicator of how qualified you are on the way out.  Having the best numbers doesn't mean that you'll lead the class and vice versa.  Some people just test well, at the end of the day it's the real world that makes all the difference.  What residency you get would be a better indicator, but still not perfect.

Thirdly, even in schools/disciplines/etc where there is considerably AA not all minority candidates benefit from it.  There are more who would have gotten in than those would would not.  Therefore, to exclude people because of their race is definitely racist.

"More qualified" is a subjective valuation that cannot be measured just by looking at the numbers.  I personally would avoid new doctors like the plague, regardless of their race or school :D Even the brightest people make mistakes, and those who are just starting out are more likely to make them.  FYI, avoid teaching hospitals like the plague (advice from my bf's bro the medical student).  :o

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Re: Would AA make you less likely to hire a black lawyer/doctor?
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2006, 02:37:52 PM »

Thirdly, even in schools/disciplines/etc where there is considerably AA not all minority candidates benefit from it.  There are more who would have gotten in than those would would not.  Therefore, to exclude people because of their race is definitely racist.


I vote we have a group discussion on the difference between the word "prejudiced" and the word "racist" before we continue this conversation.
 
Not that either characteristic is good, but the distinction is important.
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