No DNA Match for Duke LAX Players

[haterade]

I already answered this. 

How would you know that there would be a media storm?  People make similar allegations all the time -- including across racial lines -- but it doesn't get picked up by the press.

[qote] With all the high profile rape cases, everyone knows that even a proven false allegation can totally ruin lives.

Yes, but who's usually involved with high profile rape cases? 

High profile people.

I hate to break it to you sports people, but Duke lacrosse isn't high profile in the way that Kobe Bryant is.

she didnt have to anticipate a media storm.  rape accusations ruin peoples lives whether they are widely publicized or not.

[favor24]

I haven't been following this case wholeheartedly because the process will probably get me fired up.  But I did read the article that was attched the first lines of it reads:

DURHAM, N.C.  — DNA testing failed to connect any members of the Duke University lacrosse team to the alleged rape of a stripper, attorneys for the athletes said Monday.

Duke University lacrosse team vs. a stripper.  They couldn't put North Carolina Central Student?  While I know it would be naive of me to think that the fact that she is a stripper won't be a focal point to the case- should it be? 

[->Soon]

So, if it turns out that the guys are innocent and she just made it up, how should she be punished?

[haterade]

she didnt have to anticipate a media storm.  rape accusations ruin peoples lives whether they are widely publicized or not.

In order for the original claim to be true -- i.e., making the false allegation to have a wider impact -- you'd have to know that it would be picked up by the media, and/or that the school would have taken it seriously.  There was no reason to believe either, especially at a school that's known for protecting its athletes. 

Remember, I'm not doubting that false allegations can ruin lives.  My problem is that she doesn't fit the normal pattern.  While it may eventually turn out that she is lying, because she doesn't fit the norm, I'm a bit wary of automatically jumping to that conclusion.


[/quote]

for a false accusation to have a wider impact (than trashing someones porsche) it would NOT have to be picked up by the media or even taken seriously by the school.  are you saying that ruining someones life is not a wide enough impact?

a false accusation of rape, even number of people who hear about it is extremely limited, can have a devestating effect on the accused.

[favor24]

I think everyone knew these players behaved badly, whether or not they actually raped the stripper.  I'm not sure you should blame them for being "uncooperative" though.  These were smart kids--they knew not to talk to police and instead just say, "lawyer."  Good for them.  I've heard commentators say how this situation would have been totally different if it had been a black team raping a white girl, and they're right--do you think a bunch of poor black kids would have hired lawyers?  They probably would have ended up in a police station spilling their guts to detectives.   

Why assume that being black= being poor or not educated enough to now how to handle such situations?

[favor24]

I'm just saying, most confessions will come from poor/stupid people.  Rich people know not to talk to detectives, even if they are innocent (which seems to be the case with Duke LAX).  If it had been a rich, preppy groups of black athletes, they probably would have acted the same way as the rich, preppy Duke athletes.  However, you don't see that many rich, preppy all-black sports teams. 

Speaking from experience, because I deal with criminal law on a daily basis at a bail bonding company. And the individuals that we bond out of jail get great attorneys without having to be preppy or rich (shocking, i know  ). Actually a couple months ago there was a well know black athlete accused of raping a white girl (consensual but she was underage, she was charged with something also).  He was represented by one of the top lawyers in the area. 

Many times athelets are treated like royalty-especially if they are the "star" of the team which was this guy's story.  And people want to help them get off, whether it be for the right reasons or not.

[_BP_]

DNA or no DNA, I still think there is more to this email:

To whom it may concern:

Tomorrow night after tonight's show, I've decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. i plan on killing the bitches as soon as they walk in and proceed to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex....all in besides arch and tack please respond.

From the probable cause affidavit:
Medical records and interviews that were obtained  by a subpoena revealed the victim had signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally, and anally.  The victim stated that she did not think the names the suspects gave her were their own.
-

Maybe there were people there who were not on the team.  Think back to college? Have you guys ever been to a team party and only members of the team were there?  Anyhow, what does a lack of DNA evidence really prove? That she was lying?  Maybe.  Is it as conclusive as some of you guys believe? NO!

[verbal]

This information shouldn't change anyone's opinion about the guilt or innocence of the players because they should have always been considered innocent until proven guilty.  The extreme willingness that the players demonstrated (through their lawyers) when using DNA evidence should also have been a big warning sign that they knew that this particular form of evidence wouldn't demonstrate guilt.

Regardless of their guilt, I still think they're scum.  Let's look at the issues here, a team held a party with only teammates present where they hired a stripper to come perform.  She was chased out under questionable circumstances, after which one player emailed his buddies about skinning her alive.  When attention is brought to the case, everyone lawyers up and refuses to cooperate with the investigation any more than they are required by law, all the while insisting that they would never turn on each other and continuing to harangue the accuser.

Now imagine how this could have played out.  After the accuser made her allegations, the players insist upon their innocence but come forward to talk about issues of privilege and power.  Horrified by the idea of being unjustly accused of rape, they volunteer their time at a local shelter for women who are victims of rape and domestic violence.  They attend many of the forums being held at this time and talk about what it means to hire a stripper to attend a student party, about issues of respect, and so forth.  Maintaining their innocence all along, they decide to work with both the police and protesters to make sure the truth comes out.  At a joint panel of the sexual assault advisory group and the lacrosse team, the players and advisors discuss ways for Duke to reduce the incidence of date rape and gang rape on campus and some of the players join the organization, having better understood the issues after this ordeal.

Not one student even came close to handling this in a sensitive and respectful matter, innocent or not.  Personally, if I were the president, the lack of respect showed in the handling of this situation would cause me to cancel next year's season as well.

i think your way off the mark with how the students did and should have acted. the truth is that the police first brought in the three team captains. the captains talked with their lawyers. the captains gave sworn statements about the events of the night. Then the captains begged the police to give them a polygraph test to prove they werent lying. After that the players volunteered a dna sample. They were very cooperative. The only reason anyone thinks they were not being cooperative is because the DA has been doing a horrible job. He was saying the players werent cooperating. when He went on MSNBC and was told that the players did all these things he was asked why he thought they werent cooperating. His reply was that because he knew the girl was raped and nobody confessed then they must not be cooperating. a confession is never a standard for cooperation. Now given all the evidence everything points away from the team bing guilty.

I will give u that the email was a stupid thing to write. i have heard several people say that it is a referance to a slasher movie. My friends and i make movie references that would appear weird to anyone who hadnt seen the movie thought they usually arent that crazy.  The truth is that kid wasnt really under investigation at all. he was never thought to be one of the rapists.

[haterade]

it implies you were talking about the impact on numerous people -- not the extent of harm in an individual's life. (I can't think of a time when someone would use "wider" to describe that.  Usually "unusually destructive" or "extent" is the phrase.)

actually, i never defined "wider" in the context of suspending the team.  i was making a comparison between a gang-rape accusion and trashing a porsche.

also, i would consider 46 people sufficient number of people to be defined as a "wide" impact.  certainly wider than trashing someones porsche.

as an aside, whats so wrong with having strippers at a party?

square

[conoroberst]

Lily I only skimmed this thread as we've gone back and forth on other threads about this topic.  I wanted to ask though, suppose you're right and non-lax players were at the party.  Suppose that non-lax players did rape her. Do you think the players would stand by as their season is diminished and their coach is gone?  Wouldnt they say who it was if it did occur and it wasnt a member of the team?  Sacrifice the non-lax player for the sake of their season?

Also if it wasnt a LAX player, then wouldnt the suspension from the entire season be enough punishment?  Would you still call for more out of Duke just because they through the ill-advised (i admit it was wrong) party?

Also, you never answered me in the other thread about Philadelphia, dammit