Review of CLS v. NYU admit weekends

[SouthSide]

I think Columbia is definitely better than Penn. The faculty is a lot stronger, the student body is generally more engaged with the study of law (my perception) and there are just so many more opportunities/events in New York. No school in the country beats Columbia in terms of the on-campus events/speakers/conferences they have.

But NY housing is more expensive than Philly. No question. Columbia Law School does a very good job of reducing this gap (and Columbia housing is way cheaper than NYU), but the gap does exist.

[azdezza]

Samesongtwice, that sounds exactly the way I felt about NU and Chicago (Chicago replacing CLS in your comparison).  I was really turned off by the students at NU who talked about how easy it was to miss class and how reading is really "optional."  Even though Chicago has the reputation for being "intense," it seems like a place where students thrive by constantly challenging themselves and I like that more.

[Pythagoras]

So I guess the consensus answer is Penn should stay out of the picture despite
the last minute matching offer?

Of course that still leaves the original problem of C vs. N.

Samesong, I see you already w/drew from NYU.  What influenced the decision?

[juliach00]

I did the cls vs. nyu admitted students week and, I have to admit, I absolutely hated Columbia. Hated. I sat in on three classes (some public interest, some corporate) and all I could see were rows of computers of people shopping for shoes and Ikea furniture. A professor would ask a question, and NOONE would answer. My student tour guide actually told us that "sooner or later, we'd figure out how to cheat the system and get away with skipping class and not reading assignments". Finally, whenever I'd ask someone why they picked CLS, I didn't hear about what intrigued them about the school, but rather where they DIDN'T get in (i.e. Harvard and Yale).

Then I went to NYU -- the students were excited, the faculty was honest and frank about the advantages of CLS (that was the other thing - at Columbia all the faculty I talked to just wouldn't stop selling the place, which just seemed disingenuous and a bit insecure) over NYU, the place just seemed to be buzzing with an actual interest in the law. I came away feeling that people went to Columbia just because of the name, but didn't really have much other reason to go there.

[Pythagoras]

I did the cls vs. nyu admitted students week and, I have to admit, I absolutely hated Columbia. Hated. I sat in on three classes (some public interest, some corporate) and all I could see were rows of computers of people shopping for shoes and Ikea furniture. A professor would ask a question, and NOONE would answer. My student tour guide actually told us that "sooner or later, we'd figure out how to cheat the system and get away with skipping class and not reading assignments". Finally, whenever I'd ask someone why they picked CLS, I didn't hear about what intrigued them about the school, but rather where they DIDN'T get in (i.e. Harvard and Yale).

Then I went to NYU -- the students were excited, the faculty was honest and frank about the advantages of CLS (that was the other thing - at Columbia all the faculty I talked to just wouldn't stop selling the place, which just seemed disingenuous and a bit insecure) over NYU, the place just seemed to be buzzing with an actual interest in the law. I came away feeling that people went to Columbia just because of the name, but didn't really have much other reason to go there.

Well, the class at NYU I sat in on had students IM-ing each other sarcastic comments about the professor and what they were each doing that night and cruising the internet.  I don't think web-hopping is unique to CLS, especially w/ 2L and 3L classes.  JS

[Pythagoras]

Thanks you guys for your responses.  I'm glad to know I'm not the only one grappling w/ this decision.  Demingh, I totally understand what you're saying about the structured programs.  I was very impressed by the variety of interdisciplinary program they have at Penn--especially the Wharton certificate program.  NYU has something similar but you have to devote an entire summer to it.  (I'd rather spend my summer earning money or helping people--preferrably while also earning money  ).

I don't mind the class size difference--either works fine for me bcos I usually find my own group in any crowd.  But I did (and still do) love Penn.  It was pretty much my "be all and end all" at the beginning of the cycle.  I can still hear a faint echo of my shouts of joy the day I got the call.  God, this is hard.

Is the Columbia name really that much better than Penn though?  I mean, either one will prob. get me the firm job I want (although I don't know how far V40 dips into the classes at either one).  But I don't plan to be a BIGlaw slave forever and I want to know that 5, 10 years down the line I won't be hampered by a JD that doesn't travel far enough.

[koko29]

Wow, a lot of great insights into the pros and cons of each school.
You guys are making me more excited about picking CLS.

and Pythagoras- You'd be fine coming out of either CLS or Penn, but if you loved both isn't CLS clearly better? I think NYC > Philly

[Pythagoras]

Nothing wrong with that, but if you're going to prestige whore (and you have the choice), might as well choose Columbia

LMAO

[Steve.jd]

But seriously, I was the exact same way.  Penn looked like the best school that I actually had a reasonable shot at getting in to, and was just a really cool program.  However, it seems that in any area where Penn is strong, Columbia and NYU are just simply stronger.  Consider that while Penn has the Wharton certificate, Columbia's business law program, faculty, and courses are generally considered the strongest in the nation...

Sorry, no.  In the business world, it's roughly seen as:

Harvard/Wharton/MIT/Stanford
Kellogg
Chicago/Berkeley
Columbia/Duke/Dartmouth
NYU/UVA/UCLA
TTT

Lily likes to breathe fire...  I see you're going to be one of NYU's famous "nice" and "laid-back" students, eh?

If you read my post, I wasn't comparing MBA programs, but business law vs. business certificate.  Either way, your grouping of the business schools is incredibly misguided, and looks like you just glanced at the US News rankings.  Columbia Business School has a lower acceptance rate than Harvard, Kellogg, Wharton, Chicago, Haas, and MIT... only Stanford has a lower rate.  Furthermore, Fuqua is a TTT, and Berkeley is certainly not on Chicago's level.

edit: I see you got a full-ride to Georgetown!  That's pretty hot.  Still think I'd take Michigan or NYU though

I'm not sure how acceptance rate describes the quality of a program.  I could start a school limit to to 50 ppl per year and have an amazingly low acceptance rate.  That said I would have arranged the list as follows:

Harvard/Stanford/Wharton
MIT/Kellog/Chicago
Berkeley/Columbia/Duke/Dartmouth/NYU/UVA/UVA/UCLA
TTT

There is a huge drop off from that second level - MBAs are overrated.  Also, Kellog is amazing

[Steve.jd]

But seriously, I was the exact same way.  Penn looked like the best school that I actually had a reasonable shot at getting in to, and was just a really cool program.  However, it seems that in any area where Penn is strong, Columbia and NYU are just simply stronger.  Consider that while Penn has the Wharton certificate, Columbia's business law program, faculty, and courses are generally considered the strongest in the nation...

Sorry, no.  In the business world, it's roughly seen as:

Harvard/Wharton/MIT/Stanford
Kellogg
Chicago/Berkeley
Columbia/Duke/Dartmouth
NYU/UVA/UCLA
TTT

Lily likes to breathe fire...  I see you're going to be one of NYU's famous "nice" and "laid-back" students, eh?

If you read my post, I wasn't comparing MBA programs, but business law vs. business certificate.  Either way, your grouping of the business schools is incredibly misguided, and looks like you just glanced at the US News rankings.  Columbia Business School has a lower acceptance rate than Harvard, Kellogg, Wharton, Chicago, Haas, and MIT... only Stanford has a lower rate.  Furthermore, Fuqua is a TTT, and Berkeley is certainly not on Chicago's level.

edit: I see you got a full-ride to Georgetown!  That's pretty hot.  Still think I'd take Michigan or NYU though

I'm not sure how acceptance rate describes the quality of a program.  I could start a school limit to to 50 ppl per year and have an amazingly low acceptance rate.  That said I would have arranged the list as follows:

Harvard/Stanford/Wharton
MIT/Kellog/Chicago
Berkeley/Columbia/Duke/Dartmouth/NYU/UVA/UVA/UCLA
TTT

There is a huge drop off from that second level - MBAs are overrated.  Also, Kellog is amazing

Actually, that's what we were talking about: B-school applicants don't arrange prestige in groups of three in the way that law school applicants do.

Also, Chicago's preeminence in Economics doesn't completely translate to its B-school. 

 

I beat you to the comment about acceptance rate =/= good so there