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Author Topic: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!  (Read 6888 times)

2b-lawyer

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2006, 04:19:56 PM »
I'm a little confused by norcaldude's comment...
Not the best schools, but some of them are decent, and they're acceptances nonetheless. 

Acceptances at those schools don't count unless they come with full fee waivers, because paying for tuition there has a negative present value.  At least at lower Tier 1s, if you think you're smarter than the average student, you *might* come out ahead, even after the tuition and opportunity costs are accounted for.  Not at those schools.  Regardless of other factors.  For most, unless your undergraduate degree is particularly worthless, even attending some of the schools (e.g. Golden Gate, Detroit Mercy...) for zero tuition is a bad investment.

So if you go to a top school(is that what you meant by Tier 1?) and "think you're smarter than the average student" you do well?? Haha, wow, not according to my friends who have gone onto great schools. It's tough. Not really sure what that point was...maybe it's me.

Even the sentence "zero tuition is a bad investment" is funny to me. If you are not paying for school, but simply investing your time and come away with a degree...how does that hurt? Clearly these people are interested in investing 3 years in school. I hate to bring up your personal factors, but according to LSN, a 171 doesn't get you into NYU, Berkley or UCLA. Wow, shows that LSAT isn't everything doesn't it.

Ouch! I agree that those statements were not encouraging. Here's something that is encouraging, though. I won't say any names, because I'm sure my family friends would not want me talking about them online, there are some very successfull lawyers that did not go to t-14. In fact they graduated from Tier3 and 4. It's not impossible to do well if you graduate from a Tier 3 or 4. It does require extra work, because you won't start off at the best/biggest firms, but if you are intelligent and savvy, you can still do well.

LSATguy

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2006, 04:22:57 PM »
I'm a little confused by norcaldude's comment...
Not the best schools, but some of them are decent, and they're acceptances nonetheless. 

Acceptances at those schools don't count unless they come with full fee waivers, because paying for tuition there has a negative present value.  At least at lower Tier 1s, if you think you're smarter than the average student, you *might* come out ahead, even after the tuition and opportunity costs are accounted for.  Not at those schools.  Regardless of other factors.  For most, unless your undergraduate degree is particularly worthless, even attending some of the schools (e.g. Golden Gate, Detroit Mercy...) for zero tuition is a bad investment.

So if you go to a top school(is that what you meant by Tier 1?) and "think you're smarter than the average student" you do well?? Haha, wow, not according to my friends who have gone onto great schools. It's tough. Not really sure what that point was...maybe it's me.

Even the sentence "zero tuition is a bad investment" is funny to me. If you are not paying for school, but simply investing your time and come away with a degree...how does that hurt? Clearly these people are interested in investing 3 years in school. I hate to bring up your personal factors, but according to LSN, a 171 doesn't get you into NYU, Berkley or UCLA. Wow, shows that LSAT isn't everything doesn't it.

Ouch! I agree that those statements were not encouraging. Here's something that is encouraging, though. I won't say any names, because I'm sure my family friends would not want me talking about them online, but suffice it say that I know some VERY successfull lawyers. They did not go to t-14. In fact they graduated from Tier3 and 4, but they are among the most financially and socially successfull people I know. It's not impossible to do well if you graduate from a Tier 3 or 4. It does require extra work, because you won't start off at the best/biggest firms, but if you are intelligent and savvy, you can still do well.

Couldn't have said it better....i know a lot of lawyers who did went to tier 3/4 and now work have their offices in NYC - in the Empire State Building. Everything is possible - it all boils down to you. After you graduate from law school and start working no one will as you from where you graduated. It will all depend on your performance and aptitude as a lawyer.

norcaldude

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2006, 04:28:40 PM »
No.  I meant that if you go to a Tier 1 and think you'll do well, law school is a reasonable investment.  That doesn't mean you WILL do well, I'm just saying that it's a reasonable investment.

Exactly, your after school salary will not be enough greater to justify the opportunity cost of three years of work.

Not yet.  I'm boosting my GPA, I'll be fine later.  I know where I am.  If I can't get in, I won't go.  That is the optimal policy.  And yes, a high LSAT isn't everything, it might not be anything.  Then again, 171 isn't high.  But that doesn't mean it's worthless.  Part of the point of the LSAT is to have cutoffs.  I disagree with the point about a 171 being so much better than a 165, I really think it's the same thing. 

But I'm just saying that a T4 isn't a good investment.  If you just "want" to be a lawyer, it STILL doesn't make sense to go if it's a NEGATIVE investment, which most non-Tier 1 schools are for most people.

Can you be successful, sure!  But that doesn't mean it was rational.

"V"

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2006, 04:29:29 PM »
I think people with low LSATs or GPAs should have to read a warning before coming to this site. LSD is overrun by the people who have literally landed in the 95th percentile or up. They are often presented with a plethora of options, and thus blow out of proportion the importance of those options. In my opinion, it's like a guy who goes to dinner with $500 and a guy who goes with $5. The guy with $5 gets a value meal and is full, and happy. The guy with $500 feels he can't possible get JUST a value meal, and so he goes to a fancier restraunt. On this board, with so many big spenders, fights arise out of which expensive restraunt is the best, and why anyone not dining with waiters in black suits instead of white shirts shouldn't bother to eat out at all.

Meh, maybe it's not the world's best comparison, but that's how I see it. In the end, both people are full, and the guy with the value meal probably enjoyed it more because he didn't feel the need to defend his decision or prestige. Obviously a higher school means certain doors will be open for you, certain things may be easier - but to say anything is impossible for a tier 4 graduate would be bull. It may not be as EASY to go into acedemia or judicial clerkships as someone at Yale, but there are ways to work hard, connect, pursue an LLM, etc. to open those doors.

I think a lot of people on these boards forget that LSD has a misrepresentative sample of people. A vast majority of people would not score well enough on the LSAT or GPA to get into any school. A vast number will never even see education past high school. We're all exceptionally lucky, and we all (150 above or below) represent a group of elite, either because of hard work, or natural talent, or both.

It just happens that most people who 'eat out' with less than $500 don't come to this board. So it's filled with posts from people who think the type of moist towel at the meal is more important than filling your belly (mmmm cheeseburger). Anyways, I'll stop blabbering about it. Congratulations to everyone for getting through undergrad, having the gumption to even take the LSAT, and for going after this dream and goal.

As others have said about all ABA schools, at the end of the meal, Yale or Cooley, the grads are both full.

Xmaize

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2006, 05:03:51 PM »
I actually think that is an excellent analogy.

Some kids are turning down t-14 schools because they got money at T2 or 3's, kids applying to T3 and T4's may have the 20,000+ to invest. Also, I'm not sure who on this board is out of college...but I've been out for 2 years and am making quite enough to live by myself, have a car and go out now and then. Plus I live in DC, one of the most expensive places in the country. I guess I'm just critical of the "you won't make enough" argument. Enough to whom? Enough to pay back loans? Enough to buy a house? There are Cooley grads who work at McDonalds and there are Cooley grads that make 6 figures. I understand wanting a return on your investment, but not even trying to see what you can make of yourself? That seems pathetic.

As I said, I'm not sub 150, so I'm not defending myself, nor do I mean to critisize you. One of my biggest pet peves however, is people who just LOVE to shoot down options and ideas.  I appreciate the clarification you gave though. I guess I recognize that some people (low or high numbers) really look to this board for support. I mean, I personally find it a little funny when people post where they've gotten in and ask everyone else to help them decide. They just want a little positive feedback. Or maybe their just bored at work like me! Good luck guys :D
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norcaldude

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2006, 05:55:44 PM »
I guess I'm just critical of the "you won't make enough" argument. Enough to whom? Enough to pay back loans? Enough to buy a house? There are Cooley grads who work at McDonalds and there are Cooley grads that make 6 figures. I understand wanting a return on your investment, but not even trying to see what you can make of yourself? That seems pathetic.

One of my biggest pet peves however, is people who just LOVE to shoot down options and ideas.

In this case, I mean that you won't make enough to cover the cost, ie it is a BAD INVESTMENT. 

There are always outliers, and you take the best information you have, imperfect as it is, and estimate where you're going to be.  And if you're going to Cooley, armed with that information you simply should not go to law school, regardless how much you of an outlier you think you'll be. It's unreasonable to think you're going to be Bill Gates.  Which is a similarly infinitesmally small chance as Cooley (or any other T3 or T4) being a good investment.

terralily

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2006, 06:17:36 PM »
If you just take into account immediate monatary rewards then college is a "bad investment" for anyone not majoring in computer science or engineering because the starting salary for a college grad with an english degree isn't going to exceed the cost of going to college.  BUT the overall, lifetime salary increase of a college graduate with any major is going to make up for the cost of college.  Some with law school IN GENERAL.  The overall salary boost will overtime yield a positive investment.  I know lawyers and law students tend to be risk adverse, but come one...

With your arguement it is a "bad investment" for someone to go to a t14 and do public interest work, because the monatary gratification wont immediately be apparent.  WTF is wrong with you???  Money isn't the sole motivator for a lot of people going to law school.  You can't quantify the quality of life improvement that can be gained by doing work that one enjoys.

Windy City here I come....DePaul it is!!!

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lsdreamer

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2006, 09:53:53 PM »
WOW, guys...I just checked this thread at the end of a very long day at work, halfway dreading the negative comments I might find, and was so happy to find all these awesome responses!  ;D

I loved the "meal" analogy...I've been working for Special Olympics for 5 years...I've never made a lot of money, work countless hours, but I love it because I feel as though I'm giving back. I plan doing public interest law-specifically disability law. I'm sure I won't make much money, but I've gotten used to not livin' large, and when I go out the door with $5, I savor every sip of my Jamba Juice.   :P I am not in it for the money, so I'm not worried too much about going to a T-4. I also know I work hard, so I'll do well. 

I have to admit, I was super nervous about posting this thread b/c it does feel like this site is innundated with people with 175's who are mad about the fact that they only got into Yale. I'm definitely not hating on them...More power to them. They have a lot more options and that's good. I just know there are SUB 150'ers and others out there who are just as deserving/capable of thriving at law school and we should never feel bad about it! 

THANKS, EVERYONE!!!  :D


lsdreamer

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2006, 09:57:20 PM »
My grades are up there and my LSAT is completly the definition of average. I've been really frusterated (esp last night after my WL at NESL) but I think threads like this are important. You might want to check out the Tier 3 and Tier 4 Acceptances and Rejections thread. I'm not sub 150, but I'm right around there and am still waiting on my first acceptance. 8 rejections are tough to stomach, but looking back, I would have applied earlier, to more PT programs and to less reaches. Like pcgg said, there ARE countless examples of people going to 3rd and 4th tier schools making quite a name for themselves and doing very well as lawyers. My mother has several friends who went to Cooley and are surpassing both her and my father in salary or work as District attorneys.

Don't worry about people who tell you to take the LSAT again. If you feel it is right for you to do that, go for it. I took it twice and did slightly better after dropping 1,300 on a class. The very idea that I slaved away at a great UG for 4 years in DC and have busted my ass to get promotions at a great firm in DC for almost 2 years now might have been for nothing...it keeps me awake at night. But in reality, it means what I make it mean. I have 3 awesome schools left to hear from and I'd be thrilled to go to any.

Sorry for SO much info! It's a rainy, boring day at work. Where did you apply? How is your cycle going? Most of all, GOOD LUCK!

Thanks for the encouragement! It's raining here, too...again.  :-[
I applied at Cal Western, Thomas Jefferson (Wait Listed), Chapman, CUNY, and Golden Gate (although I wouldn't go there now w/ their ABA probation).  I'm hoping I get in somewhere!

GOOD LUCK to you on your forthcoming acceptances!  Let me know how it goes. Who are you waiting on?   :)

laurrk

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Re: THE SUB 150 CLUB...WE DESERVE A THREAD!
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2006, 10:25:42 PM »
I'm not sub 150, but I love this thread. I am not going to the "best" school that I got into, but I am going to the school where I think I will be happiest. I look forward to someday having a job that I enjoy. And I'll definitely enjoy the boost in income, however much that will be.

We're all going to be lawyers, and we should each give ourself a pat on the back because we've gotten this far. Finishing four years of college (or in my case, seven and a half years off and on) is an accomplishment to be proud of. I never thought I'd get to this point, so I am thrilled to death to be starting law school in August.

Love your school, no matter what it's ranking. There are highly successful lawyers from tier 3 and 4 law schools. The LSAT is not a perfect predictor of your success as a lawyer. If you don't do the work, it doesn't matter what your LSAT score is.

Good luck everyone with acceptances. :)