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Author Topic: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!  (Read 5423 times)

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2006, 01:08:32 AM »
Mr. Moussaoui's Punishment
When prosecutors and a defendant are eager for a death sentence, think twice.
Monday, May 1, 2006; Page A18


WHAT JURY COULD spare accused Sept. 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui from capital punishment? Mr. Moussaoui does not just admit his role in the attacks, he boasts of it. He claims more culpability than the government can prove. He revels in the attacks' success and sneers at and insults the grieving families of the victims. He mocks the justice system that would hold him accountable. What jury could find the mitigating factors in his case outweighing the aggravating ones? Only a jury -- or individual jurors -- both wise and courageous.

We oppose the death penalty as a matter of principle. But in Mr. Moussaoui's case, there are at least two reasons for sparing him, independent of one's views on capital punishment. The first is that Mr. Moussaoui's actual connections to the attacks are tenuous. The government wishes to put him to death because, by lying to investigators at the time of his detention, he allegedly prevented them from unraveling the conspiracy. This is an emotionally powerful argument, because everyone wants to be able to rewind the clock and have another shot at stopping what happened that day -- or, at least, to hold someone responsible in lieu of 19 hijackers unavailable for trial. And it ironically dovetails with an apparently powerful emotional need on Mr. Moussaoui's part to take credit for the attacks. It may even be correct, as the jury found in holding him eligible for death.

 
But the government's theory is inherently speculative, and America shouldn't administer lethal injections based on speculation. Mr. Moussaoui is a braggart and at least a little bit nutty. He didn't actually kill anyone. Allowing his execution would potentially open the door for executions of low-level conspirators in other crimes, not for actual participation but for allowing them to happen. It's a dangerous road.

The second reason to spare Mr. Moussaoui is to avoid martyring him -- both in his own mind and, more important, in the minds of al-Qaeda sympathizers around the world. Al-Qaeda is, among other things, a death cult; Osama bin Laden once described his fighters as "The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life." Everything about Mr. Moussaoui's behavior throughout his trial testifies to his yearning for martyrdom. Prosecutors are happy to oblige, but it's not the smart response.


make no mistake...he should be executed as retribution...he was already looked at by his peers as a sicarii...he is no martyr.

what timothy mcveigh could have prevented.
what this "crescenting guerrilla" could have prevented...

jurisprudence will be actioned...burn his heart...
If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
  if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison  
  us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not  
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verbal213

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2006, 08:25:45 PM »
Sigh...oh well.  What can one do?  I just fear that this will give ammo to the anti-death penalty crowd, ie, We didn't execute Moussaoui, why should we execute this guy?

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2006, 08:44:02 PM »
those three jurors also have the rest of their lives to be haunted by the ghosts of those murdered...

retribution would have been appropriate.

as for zm...he will be buried in a cell for the rest of his life and then allah will eventually handle him...perhaps he will have many surprises waiting for him in prison...

and for the piss-poor "martyr" fearing folks...you win.
but this bumbleclot was looked at by his peers as a sicarii.
If you prick us, do we not bleed?  
  if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison  
  us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not  
  revenge? m.of v. w.shaka                                             speare

ADM

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2006, 09:13:51 PM »
those three jurors also have the rest of their lives to be haunted by the ghosts of those murdered...

retribution would have been appropriate.

as for zm...he will be buried in a cell for the rest of his life and then allah will eventually handle him...perhaps he will have many surprises waiting for him in prison...

and for the piss-poor "martyr" fearing folks...you win.
but this bumbleclot was looked at by his peers as a sicarii.


I think you misunderstood. Martyrdom was never my primary argument against the death penalty. I think it's fundamentally wrong (and hypocritical) to sentence a murderer to death for killing defenseless people.

sacrilegist

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2006, 03:17:06 PM »
I think the jurors who disagreed with death did so because they felt Moussaoui's link to the actual events of 9/11 was weak at best.  Wanting justice for what happened on 9/11 doesn't mean we should kill Moussaoui just because he's the only one we've got.

verbal213

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2006, 04:08:42 PM »
Sigh...oh well.  What can one do?  I just fear that this will give ammo to the anti-death penalty crowd, ie, We didn't execute Moussaoui, why should we execute this guy?

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i'll take that over giving ammo to the "i'm a fundamentalist fanatic who wants to be martyred too" crowd.

That's absurd.  Typical of the "it's our fault mentality," sadly.  These people hate us and want to kill us.  You can't hope to appease them by not executing Moussaoui.  WAKE UP!

EDIT: I'm sorry, but the more I think about your comment the angrier I get.  That is such a ridiculous thing to say.  Who cares if executing this a-hole will make them mad?  Honestly, why does their opinion matter?  If you think it will make them want to attack us more, you're wrong, but even if you think that, the appropriate response is to try harder to kill them and prevent attacks, not to spare Moussaoui.  The Islamofascists are animals who must be pounded into submission.  They represent everything we, liberal and conservative alike, must oppose.  And yet, we allow ourselves to be divided by stupid little details like whether we should execute Moussaoui.  Enough already, America, this is war.  The outcome is not assured.  We have to win.
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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2006, 04:11:52 PM »
Moussaoui played us.  He isn't mad that hes not being executed.  He didn't want to be a martyr.  He said to "America lost, I won."  The guy is happy to be alive. He knew by acting the way he did, people would try not to make him a martyr, even though he wouldnt have been one at all, and now hes alive.

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2006, 04:45:33 PM »
My biggest concern about giving him the death penalty was the effect it would have had on our death penalty jurisprudence. Its not often that we execute people who were in jail when the crime they are executed for was conducted. Sure we have executed people for predicate crimes like attempt and conspiracy before, but they are always present at the actual scene of the crime and are condemned because they could have prevented the crime but failed to do so. The causal connection between Moussaoui's ommission and the fact that 9/11 occurred is extremely weak. Would the FBI have even taken him seriously if he had warned them? Did he even know what the other targets were, who the other hijackers were, what airports they were going to operate from? Maybe not.

In this particular case, I personally couldn't care less if they burned him alive because there isn't an ounce of me that thinks he deserves to live, but what about the next time some guy in jail knows some vague details about a crime that hasn't yet occurred is being considered for the death penalty?

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2006, 05:44:53 PM »
I get the impression that those who are extremely hungry for his death are seeking retribution for 9/11 instead of retribution for what Moussaoui actually did.

verbal213

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Re: ZACHARIAS MOUSSAOUI WILL BURN!!!!!
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2006, 06:14:35 PM »
That's absurd.  Typical of the "it's our fault mentality," sadly.  These people hate us and want to kill us.  You can't hope to appease them by not executing Moussaoui.  WAKE UP!

who said anything about appeasing them?  they don't have access to him, and they can't point to him as a martyr.

Honestly, why does their opinion matter?  If you think it will make them want to attack us more, you're wrong, but even if you think that, the appropriate response is to try harder to kill them and prevent attacks, not to spare Moussaoui.  The Islamofascists are animals who must be pounded into submission.  They represent everything we, liberal and conservative alike, must oppose.

so are you saying he should have been executed for deterrence?  retribution?  both?

as for deterrence, these are suicide bombers we're talking about here, not your average american murder (who also isn't deterred by the death penalty very much).  do you think the death penalty deters suicide bombers ... people who kill themselves for their cause?  wasn't the iraq war supposed to be the big example, after all, of how america would respond to threats?  how much has that deterred terrorism?

if you're not arguing for deterrence, this is all based on the premise that you're arguing with someone who agrees with the death penalty in principle for some type of retributive effect.  you're not.  if you're going to go that route we should just stop posting because i'm not going to beat that dead horse.

They represent everything we, liberal and conservative alike, must oppose.

so since life in prison w/solitary confinement doesn't "oppose" him enough to you, what you're really saying is that they represent everything we, liberal and conservative alike, must respond to conservatively.  while trying to sound non-partisan, you're making an empty (and circular) statement here.

It's appeasement because you imply that fear of attack should preclude us from executing him, at least in part.  That's what your original response implies, if that's not what you mean, please correct me.

I understand what you're implying about the Iraq war causing more terrorism, if you are referring to the insurgency.  Obviously they wouldn't be attacking us in Iraq if we hadn't invaded because we wouldn't be there.  But, I do think that military action to destroy al Qaeda is the only way to ultimately prevent attacks.  My overall point was not really about Moussaoui, just a response to what I saw as your belief that not executing him will somehow prevent attacks.  Hopefully, you recognize how wrong that idea is.  I agree there's no point to debate the death penalty overall.

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