AA in South Africa.

[Ilovecheese]

Some suggest AA to be implemented in South Africa, a country where the majority is black, but whites are the ruling class.
Discuss.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=594&art_id=vn20060328041237689C842917

[coquita]

hmm..you're back. wondered how long it would take.

i don't have a stance on this issue since i'm not African and don't know the whole situation outside of the one sided article you provided. but i'm sure you'll make baseless assertions about it nonetheless.

[coquita]

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9810/08/safrica.affirmative.action/
here's a more balanced article.

[Ilovecheese]

Haha, yeah I'm back. I wanted to discuss this issue comparing it to the US since a point was raised in one of the posts that AA would be rid off in 25 years or so.
However, since AA is used as a mistreatment balancer and since in Africa the ones who were the cause of mistreatment are in power AA was presented for discussion.
So my question is, in several decades minority populations will probably make up a big chunk of American population, since through today's statistics whites are increasing their population slower than other groups do. But what if governmental and judicial powers will still be in the hands of whites? Will that mean that AA will still exist since whites are the cause of mistreatment?
I understand that it is hard to make such a comparison since it is impossible to predict the future, but  the hypothetical case presented being true, what are your thoughts?

[redemption]

Haha, yeah I'm back. I wanted to discuss this issue comparing it to the US since a point was raised in one of the posts that AA would be rid off in 25 years or so.
However, since AA is used as a mistreatment balancer and since in Africa the ones who were the cause of mistreatment are in power AA was presented for discussion.
So my question is, in several decades minority populations will probably make up a big chunk of American population, since through today's statistics whites are increasing their population slower than other groups do. But what if governmental and judicial powers will still be in the hands of whites? Will that mean that AA will still exist since whites are the cause of mistreatment?
I understand that it is hard to make such a comparison since it impossible to predict the future, but  the hypothetical case presented being true, what are your thoughts?

Systematic power imbalance is evidence of bias
Existence of bias is the justificatory basis of corrective action
Affirmative action is a form of corrective action

[Ilovecheese]

I agree on all points with you red.
Now let'c consider the following:
Power is in the hands of those who posess money.
Money is acquired through educating oneself.
Most  blacks were not able to educate themselves because of racist policies and lack of money.
A creation of the circle of poverty was followed.
AA broke the circle and allowed some blacks to receive education allowing them to earn enough to support education of their children. This brought blacks into positions of power.
Now, will their be a need for AA when URM's will live equally to whites? This question might be stupid to some, but successful URM's still use their ethnic status  to get into top schools if they are at a numerical disadvantage compared to whites.

So when will AA be rid off?
When racism and prejudice that cause mistreatment will not exist? I find that impossible.
Or when URM's will be qual to whites in terms of power distribution and income?
Or is it a combination of both?

[redemption]

I agree on all points with you red.
Now let'c consider the following:
Power is in the hands of those who posess money.
Money is acquired through educating oneself.
Most  blacks were not able to educate themselves because of racist policies and lack of money.
A creation of the circle of poverty was followed.
AA broke the circle and allowed some blacks to receive education allowing them to earn enough to support education of their children. This brought blacks into positions of power.
Now, will their be a need for AA when URM's will live equally to whites? This question might be stupid to some, but successful URM's still use their ethnic status  to get into top schools if they are at a numerical disadvantage compared to whites.

So when will AA be rid off?
When racism and prejudice that cause mistreatment will not exist? I find that impossible.
Or when URM's will be qual to whites in terms of power distribution and income?
Or is it a combination of both?

The day that blacks and whites are of equal power and status in this or any other country is the day that we should dismantle AA.

[philibusters]

The 25 years thing was from 2003 dissenting opinion of Clarence Thomas (he said 300 months for some reason instead of 25 years go figure.

Immigration to South Africa is very high from neighboring countries liek Zimbabwe and Zambia, et cetera, (not to say the SA gov't isn't trying to stop them, they are), most of the immigrants are black, should the AA extend to them, or is it more of a restitution type thing?  I ask that from a philosphical position (is it morally jsutified), not a policy position (if they are trying to stop immigrants why give them AA?)

[Ilovecheese]

Immigration to South Africa is very high from neighboring countries liek Zimbabwe and Zambia, et cetera, (not to say the SA gov't isn't trying to stop them, they are), most of the immigrants are black, should the AA extend to them, or is it more of a restitution type thing?  I ask that from a philosphical position (is it morally jsutified), not a policy position (if they are trying to stop immigrants why give them AA?)

South African AA is a tad different, it applies on work placement. From a philosophical position it should be extended to immigrants since they are African and might have suffered the same injustices which Soouth Africans suffered and still suffer.

While reading upon this subject I became to wonder if AA should be selective?
What I mean is that only people, not just URM's who prove that they were put in an unfavorable position which was the cause of their grades and LSAT being lower.

[coquita]

The problem i have w/ the AA they are instituting in South Africa is that they are actually firing white executives to replace them with blacks. i don't see how it is justifiable to terminate someone solely on race. With AA in the US race is not the sole factor for hiring, but it gives a boost to the candidate depending on ethnicity. So therefore a white who is 10x more qualified than the URM will probably get hired over the URM because race can't make up for the extreme difference in qualifications. However it seems that in South Africa race is almost the sole factor in hiring in some industries. And that just doesn't make sense to me.

Other than that I think what Red said is completely accurate. When systemic racism is eliminated, thats when we should stop using AA.