Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
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Poll

Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???

I'm male and want kids
 51 (24.8%)
I'm female and want kids
 45 (21.8%)
I'm male and DONTwant kids
 35 (17%)
I'm female and DONT want kids
 50 (24.3%)
unsure
 25 (12.1%)

Total Members Voted: 194

Author Topic: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???  (Read 27320 times)

norcaldude

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2006, 10:29:37 PM »
actually, that's without any thought of a nanny.  that's not in the necessary expense calculation...

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out

--------------------------------------------------------------

Total MINIMUM necessary income: ~$300k.

--------------------------------------------------------------

And that's without a Brazillian nanny, or a BMW.

I was $100k off.  Fine.  Same idea, $300k, 400k might as well be a mil to me today.

Anything wrong with the calculations?  That's really just to afford to raise a child, nothing much, nothing pretentious.  Want to be able to send them to summer camp, pay for piano lessons, sports teams, etc.  And live in relatively nice, unpretentious home, in a decent neighborhood, attending a decent school.

Sure, it's a lot less if the house doesn't cost a fortune, and public schools are decent, but I mentioned that at the beginning.  I like it here, regardless the costs.

I hope to god you're not serious...

And if you are serious:  you make me sick.

I'm serious.  You'd understand if you lived here.  The cost of living is pretty insane.  $1.5m buys about what $300k buys in Atlanta, if not less.  As for minimum standards required for having a child, the public schools here are unfathomably bad, and I don't think that $6k is unreasonable as the amount necessary to spend on a child, that's what I'd need to provide what my parents managed to provide for me, on a much lower income, because housing cost a hell of a lot less, and public schools were still at least tenable.  Nor is $20k unreasonable for COL (food, car, car insurance, and a few occasional goodies).  What's wrong with it?

jvan2619

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2006, 11:20:34 AM »
Based on what you have stated is important to you ... do the world a favor and NEVER have children.

norcaldude

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2006, 12:07:12 PM »
Based on what you have stated is important to you ... do the world a favor and NEVER have children.

Providing a home, an education, at least some activities for them to enjoy, and the tools necessary to succeed means I should never have children?  Or that anyone who wishes to live in a city shouldn't have children?  On the contrary, I think if I can't provide even the basics, I don't deserve them, not vice versa.

jvan2619

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2006, 02:08:12 PM »
That is a great point LawMan!

norcaldude - Really, I have nothing against ANYONE who doesn't want children.  It's completely a personal decision and preference, but if you really think you need that much money to provide what you consider as "the basics" for your children than you are just making selfish excuses.  A $1.5M house?  Really?  That is what you believe is "necessary"?  Let me tell you my friend, if you think that you have to have a $1.5M house (even in NYC) to provide the basics for your children you are sorely mistaken. 

jacy85

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2006, 02:14:28 PM »
People that can afford much more than a $1.5 million dollar house, and "activities" for their kids do a horrible job of providing the basics.

You seem to really have a warped view of what is a "necessity."  A kid doesn't need to go to summer school.  A kid doesn't NEED to go to the best private school money can offer.  A kid NEEDS parents that will read with them, play board games with them, talk to them about life, and provide guidance without being overprotective.  None of this requires a $1.5 million dollar house, and $6 grand for summer camp and tennis lessons.

norcaldude

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2006, 02:27:22 PM »
People that can afford much more than a $1.5 million dollar house, and "activities" for their kids do a horrible job of providing the basics.

You seem to really have a warped view of what is a "necessity."  A kid doesn't need to go to summer school.  A kid doesn't NEED to go to the best private school money can offer.  A kid NEEDS parents that will read with them, play board games with them, talk to them about life, and provide guidance without being overprotective.  None of this requires a $1.5 million dollar house, and $6 grand for summer camp and tennis lessons.

Those are all necessities.  Reading, board games, guidance, a home to call their own, organic foods, tennis lessons, and summer camps as well (although the latter can be foregone if one parent stays home).  Some don't require anything in terms of income, just time.  Which makes having the kind of income necessary even higher, as you'd need to have not only $300k gross, but $300k gross without 80 hour weeks.

Rather than a $1.5m home + private schooling, I can forsee a $800k-$1.2m home with no extra educational expenses in a suburb.  The further away one moves from the city, the cheaper a decent home in a suburb with good schools can be had.  Any suburbs with prices lower than around $800k mean you'll commute too long to spend time with said kids.  And in that sense I am selfish, I will not live in a suburb.

jacy85

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2006, 08:17:46 PM »
And again, you're just continuing to prove that you have a really warped idea of what's a basic necessity.  Many things you seem to feel are "necessities" are really luxuries that no one really needs.

A 1.5 million dollar house is NOT a necessity, and I don't care what city you're living in.

Please decide to never have children.  Your warped, yuppy values shouldn't be passed on to another generation.

norcaldude

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2006, 09:53:45 PM »
And again, you're just continuing to prove that you have a really warped idea of what's a basic necessity.  Many things you seem to feel are "necessities" are really luxuries that no one really needs.

A 1.5 million dollar house is NOT a necessity, and I don't care what city you're living in.

Please decide to never have children.  Your warped, yuppy values shouldn't be passed on to another generation.

If I fail to make biglaw that will allow me to purchase a house for credit, and fail to join a startup that gives me the necessary equity to buy a house for cash money, you shall have your wish. 

I can survive satisfactorily as long as I have a roof over my head and food on the table, but before I have kids I'd need to be able to provide for them.  My warped yuppie values are my sense of the American Dream, yours may be different.  I'd love to have children some day, but I'd need to be able to afford them without asking for handouts.

Maybe: A $300k house is not a necessity in major low COL city?  But then you'd rethink that statement I figure...  :-[

upNdown

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2006, 11:54:00 PM »

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out


You forgot the final line:

Having kids: PRICELESS

GPA - 2.095 (It was a long time ago and I wasn't trying.)
LSAT - 161

In - Suffolk, New England School of Law
Out - BC, Northeastern
Pending - Nothing pending . . . now what?

upNdown

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Re: Anyone planning on NEVER having kids???
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2006, 08:12:06 AM »

Modest house (and I'm really saying modest, not too small, but nothing spectacular): $1.5m, @ 6%: $9000/mo
Taxes: $16000 yr
Insurance: $2000 yr
Maintenance + Utilities: $10000
Other than kid expenses: $20k/yr (I can live off that, includes food, a run-of-the-mill Honda, etc)
Savings: $10k/yr
-----------------------------------------
total: $166k

AMT kicks in, assume 35% overall federal + state tax rate.

income necessary before even CONSIDERING a kid: $255k

-------------------------------------------------------------

Kid expenses: $6k/yr (summer camps, food, etc, etc)
Kid education: $25k/yr (K-12, $50k/yr college)

Not tax deductible, so, another $31/.65 = ~ $47k -- even more at college, but less early on, so evens out


You forgot the final line:

Having kids: PRICELESS



I have to add that if you honestly believe you need an over/under income level to have kids, you're a fool.  There's nothing wrong with deciding not to have kids; it is understandable to NOT want to give 20 years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars away.  But that is a decision you have to find within yourself, NOT WITHIN YOUR WALLET.

The best advice I ever heard on this topic (which I ignored, BTW) was simple: If you wait until you can afford children, you'll never have kids.  To me, it seems like you can never afford kids, yet you can always afford them.  Kind of a paradox, but its true.     
GPA - 2.095 (It was a long time ago and I wasn't trying.)
LSAT - 161

In - Suffolk, New England School of Law
Out - BC, Northeastern
Pending - Nothing pending . . . now what?